Has nuTrek been INTERNALLY consistent, so far?

[Set Harth]

Well I can think of some contradictions within each movie:
in Star Trek 2009, Spock maroons Kirk for mutiny via an escape pod. But in Into Darkness, the Enterprise has a brig.
in Into Darkness, Marcus has Carol beamed off the Enterprise right through the shields, but later Khan demands Spock drop the shields and hand over the cryo torpedoes in exchange for Kirk, Scotty, and Carol.

Those aren't really contradictions.

When Carol is beamed off the Enterprise, shields were down due to damage. Later they had recharged.

 

[fireproof78]

My own problem is that the technology isn't consistent with the setting.

Put bluntly, starships don't make sense in the Abramsverse. Interstellar travel appears to take an hour at most, and in most cases much less, so why are they using the nautical paradigm for transport rather than the aviation paradigm?

What's the point of a "Five Year Mission" when nowhere in the galaxy is far enough away that you can't get home for lunch?

It doesn't make internal sense.

We really don't have a proper frame of reference for time of travel in Abrams universe, partially due to the pacing of the films. So, it's hard to say exactly. Also, Kirk and company in TOS, and Picard and company in TNG, have been to the edge of the galaxy, and Kirk went to the center of the galaxy, so it's not like there is a lot of consistency regarding space travel

A five year mission is more about being out there and studying cultures, anomalies, natural phenomenon and things like that, observing for months, if necessary, rather than a drive by photography session.

 

[DCR]

My own problem is that the technology isn't consistent with the setting.

Put bluntly, starships don't make sense in the Abramsverse. Interstellar travel appears to take an hour at most, and in most cases much less, so why are they using the nautical paradigm for transport rather than the aviation paradigm?

What's the point of a "Five Year Mission" when nowhere in the galaxy is far enough away that you can't get home for lunch?

It doesn't make internal sense.

We really don't have a proper frame of reference for time of travel in Abrams universe, partially due to the pacing of the films. So, it's hard to say exactly. Also, Kirk and company in TOS, and Picard and company in TNG, have been to the edge of the galaxy, and Kirk went to the center of the galaxy, so it's not like there is a lot of consistency regarding space travel

A five year mission is more about being out there and studying cultures, anomalies, natural phenomenon and things like that, observing for months, if necessary, rather than a drive by photography session.

Yes, it's impossible to try and make sense of the speeds involved in previous incarnations of Trek. My own handwave is that the effective "speed" of a given warp factor depends on the conditions of space at the time, so it's not a constant. However, the one thing that was constant about all the Prime Universe stories was that multi-day travel times between stops were the norm. Different trips took different times, but at least some involved several days' travel, and that means the nautical paradigm makes sense in the situation.

I understand that a five year mission involves long periods of time studying things in one location, the problem is that there's no point doing that when the location you're studying is less than an hour away. It's easier to commute. You don't build large ships for commuter distances, and all the evidence we've seen in the current incarnation of Trek is that everything is in commute range.

Transport paradigms change according to travel times, and the travel times in the Abramsverse fit the shortest paradigm while the ship design fits the longest. It's broken.

 

[BillJ]

I understand that a five year mission involves long periods of time studying things in one location, the problem is that there's no point doing that when the location you're studying is less than an hour away. It's easier to commute. You don't build large ships for commuter distances, and all the evidence we've seen in the current incarnation of Trek is that everything is in commute range.

Since all we've seen is local transport between known locations, it could simply be a matter of there being "warp highways".

 

[Christopher]

I can't speak for OpenMaw, but to me, it seems like if there was going to be centralized creative control as you describe above, then the person or people doing that control (perhaps a brand management team at CBS) could have done the job right and allowed ALL of it to be canon.

It's been tried, but it never really works. For instance, J. Michael Straczynski wanted all the Babylon 5 novels to be canonical, but writing and producing the show itself was such a 24/7 job that he couldn't devote enough time to oversee the Dell novels and ensure consistency, and so errors slipped through. He wasn't able to put out a truly canonical book line until after the series was cancelled and he had the time to devote to it.

There's also the factor that's already been mentioned above: The content of a film is subject to constant change up until the point it's finally released. But it takes weeks or months to get a comic book or novel onto the shelves even after it's been completely written/drawn and edited. So even if a movie tie-in book or comic is perfectly consistent with the movie at the time it goes to press, there's no guarantee it'll still be consistent with the movie once said movie comes out.

So really, the only options are to have apocryphal tie-ins that come out alongside the screen canon, or canon-consistent tie-ins that come out well after the screen canon has decisively ended. Would Abramsverse fans really be content to wait an indefinite number of years until the series has ended?

Ultimately, it's not about consistency. That's a nice thing to have, but the primary mandate is just to tell entertaining stories. If those stories have some inconsistencies with one another, that will bother certain detail-oriented fans, but most readers or viewers won't even notice, because they're too busy having a good time -- which probably makes them smarter than us detail-obsessed geeks who are too busy worrying about consistency to allow ourselves to actually enjoy the experience.

Well I can think of some contradictions within each movie:
in Star Trek 2009, Spock maroons Kirk for mutiny via an escape pod. But in Into Darkness, the Enterprise has a brig.

Actually a brig was mentioned in dialogue in ST'09, at least in the script. Spock's rationale for marooning Kirk was that he'd probably escape if he were confined to the brig.

in Into Darkness, Marcus has Carol beamed off the Enterprise right through the shields, but later Khan demands Spock drop the shields and hand over the cryo torpedoes in exchange for Kirk, Scotty, and Carol.

Weren't the shields damaged when he beamed Carol off?

Notwithstanding that Kirk's team aboard the K'normian trading vessel made it all the way into Qo'noS's atmosphere without being stopped (which is completely ridicuous, especially for the Klingon Empire's capital planet), the Federation is alright 1 year later in the epilogue of Into Darkness, no war with the Klingons anywhere.

The whole reason they were in a K'normian vessel and civilian garb was so that the Klingons wouldn't know they were acting on behalf of the Federation. That was made quite clear in dialogue beforehand.

In both movies, Earth Spacedock is shown with many Starfleet vessels docked and yet later nobody is around to help the Enterprise against the Narada nor the Vengeance.

In the first movie, that was explained by the destruction of much of the fleet at Vulcan, and by the rest of the fleet gathering for that operation in the Laurentian system. In STID, it wasn't addressed, but I would guess that Marcus, being the head of Starfleet, ordered the other ships away so that he could attack the Enterprise unimpeded.

In Into Darkness, Scotty says that Starfleet confiscated his transwarp beaming equation. So was that before or after he used it during the Enterprise's journey like in "The Return of the Archons, Part 1" or "The Truth About Tribbles, Part 1"?

I believe the intent in the comics was to show how Scotty developed the equation that the movie said was confiscated.

While this is not necessarily "internal", Abrams and his crew have repeatedly iterated that the Narada and the Jellyfish made one-way temporal transits which left the "prime" reality intact. Q himself states this to Picard in-universe in "The Q Gambit, Part 1". But in "The Return of the Archons" 2-part comic story, the population of Beta III is revealed to be descended from the crew of the U.S.S. Archon and not native to the planet. And Landru is a human-invented AI computer. This is completely impossible because it is totally different from the original "The Return of the Archons" episode.

Yeah, the early issues of the comic had trouble figuring out how to approach the whole alternate-timeline idea. The first two storylines were way too slavish to the original episodes, complete with a lot of verbatim dialogue, to be convincing as alternate versions happening years earlier. And then in the "Archons" story they swerved way too far in the other direction by telling a story that was impossible to reconcile with the alternate-timeline premise.

But, then, as I said, attempts to make tie-ins canon-consistent are harder than they may look, and so there are bound to be some early missteps. Which is why it's so unlikely to work.

The 2013 Star Trek video game. It's atrocious. The Gorn are from another galaxy???
No.

I thought they were from another alternate reality. Which seems like an effective way to explain why they're so different from the Gorn of the known reality. I figure the conceit of the game is that the Gorn we know still exist in this galaxy, but these alternate-universe Gorn somehow colonized or got transplanted to a different galaxy, while also being mutated or engineered into very different forms.

My own problem is that the technology isn't consistent with the setting.

Put bluntly, starships don't make sense in the Abramsverse. Interstellar travel appears to take an hour at most, and in most cases much less, so why are they using the nautical paradigm for transport rather than the aviation paradigm?

What's the point of a "Five Year Mission" when nowhere in the galaxy is far enough away that you can't get home for lunch?

It doesn't make internal sense.

In the first movie, the trip from Earth to Vulcan was meant to take significantly longer than we were shown; there was an implicit cut of several hours just before Chekov's briefing, during which Kirk slept off his sedative and McCoy changed clothing. But the scene was edited to feel continuous for the sake of pacing.

The very quick trip from the Klingon border to Earth in STID is more sloppy, because it's hard to find a point in the sequence in which a time gap could be assumed to exist. I chalk that up to a mistake.

Given that Orci is a bigger Trek fan and continuity maven than Abrams, I wouldn't be surprised if he's more diligent about these details as director of the third film.

 

[The Wormhole]

In Into Darkness, Scotty says that Starfleet confiscated his transwarp beaming equation. So was that before or after he used it during the Enterprise's journey like in "The Return of the Archons, Part 1" or "The Truth About Tribbles, Part 1"?

Actually, this makes sense. Since Scotty and his nephew beamed a tribble to Starfleet Command which then spawned and ultimately led to the two of them being reprimanded, it makes sense that Starfleet would confiscate the transwarp beaming equation and related technology as a result of this incident.

 

[fireproof78]

In Into Darkness, Scotty says that Starfleet confiscated his transwarp beaming equation. So was that before or after he used it during the Enterprise's journey like in "The Return of the Archons, Part 1" or "The Truth About Tribbles, Part 1"?

Actually, this makes sense. Since Scotty and his nephew beamed a tribble to Starfleet Command which then spawned and ultimately led to the two of them being reprimanded, it makes sense that Starfleet would confiscate the transwarp beaming equation and related technology as a result of this incident.

Yeah, I can see Starfleet Command having a few choice words about such tech. Admiral Marcus probably saw it as an additional weapon for his war, too. So confiscation was inevitable.

 

[Set Harth]

Since all we've seen is local transport between known locations, it could simply be a matter of there being "warp highways".

Ah, yes - the famous workaround from Star Wars fandom, where they're called "hyperspace lanes", to explain the huge discrepancy between travel times as depicted in the films ( Abrams Trek speed ) and the ones depicted in other sources ( drunken snail speed ).

 

[BillJ]

Since all we've seen is local transport between known locations, it could simply be a matter of there being "warp highways".

Ah, yes - the famous workaround from Star Wars fandom, where they're called "hyperspace lanes", to explain the huge discrepancy between travel times as depicted in the films ( Abrams Trek speed ) and the ones depicted in other sources ( drunken snail speed ).

Well, it is entertainment not a chronicle of the future.

 

[Enterprise1701]

The whole reason they were in a K'normian vessel and civilian garb was so that the Klingons wouldn't know they were acting on behalf of the Federation. That was made quite clear in dialogue beforehand.

Captain Kuron (that's the name the card game Rivals gives to the patrol leader) recognized Uhura as human and deduced that the killer she was referring to was also human. And I think I spotted some members of the patrol getting away after Khan's assault.

Given that Orci is a bigger Trek fan and continuity maven than Abrams, I wouldn't be surprised if he's more diligent about these details as director of the third film.

I hope.

 

[Tosk]

Given that Orci is a bigger Trek fan and continuity maven than Abrams, I wouldn't be surprised if he's more diligent about these details as director of the third film.

I hope.

It's hard to be optimistic...

Trekmovie: [...] didn’t you also fudge canon by ignoring that Delta Vega was way out next to the galactic barrier?

Orci: True. Yeah we did. We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg, than a new name with no importance

But fingers crossed nonetheless.

 

[Christopher]

The whole reason they were in a K'normian vessel and civilian garb was so that the Klingons wouldn't know they were acting on behalf of the Federation. That was made quite clear in dialogue beforehand.

Captain Kuron (that's the name the card game Rivals gives to the patrol leader) recognized Uhura as human and deduced that the killer she was referring to was also human.

So? Political affiliations aren't genetic. There's no reason there couldn't be human civilians living in K'normian society or working for a K'normian business.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Meh, as long as they don't do something like this...

Alexander Rozhenko 2370 age 4

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Alexander_Rozhenko,_2370.jpg

Alexander Rozhenko 2374 age 8

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Alexander_Rozhenko,_2374.jpg

I'm fine with a few discrepancies.

 

[mythme]

I dont find that a discrepency at all. Why would every species mature at the same rate as humans, especially a "warrior" race which probably originates from predatory, "fight or die" origin where maturing quickly is neccessary for survival. Heck, if Alexander hadn't been 1/4 human, he may have matured even faster

 

[Christopher]

^Except there's no evidence of other Klingons maturing that quickly -- or even a Klingon-human hybrid like B'Elanna Torres, judging from "Lineage."

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^Except there's no evidence of other Klingons maturing that quickly -- or even a Klingon-human hybrid like B'Elanna Torres, judging from "Lineage."

And, Worf's sometimes mentioning his childhood tends to give the impression that Klingons don't mature quickly.

 

[BillJ]

Meh, as long as they don't do something like this...

Alexander Rozhenko 2370 age 4

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Alexander_Rozhenko,_2370.jpg

Alexander Rozhenko 2374 age 8

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Alexander_Rozhenko,_2374.jpg

I'm fine with a few discrepancies.

Even this would've been fine if the stories involving young adult Alexander weren't so horrible.

 

[Mytran]

While this is not necessarily "internal", Abrams and his crew have repeatedly iterated that the Narada and the Jellyfish made one-way temporal transits which left the "prime" reality intact. Q himself states this to Picard in-universe in "The Q Gambit, Part 1". But in "The Return of the Archons" 2-part comic story, the population of Beta III is revealed to be descended from the crew of the U.S.S. Archon and not native to the planet. And Landru is a human-invented AI computer. This is completely impossible because it is totally different from the original "The Return of the Archons" episode.

Yeah, the early issues of the comic had trouble figuring out how to approach the whole alternate-timeline idea. The first two storylines were way too slavish to the original episodes, complete with a lot of verbatim dialogue, to be convincing as alternate versions happening years earlier. And then in the "Archons" story they swerved way too far in the other direction by telling a story that was impossible to reconcile with the alternate-timeline premise.

I'm not so sure - as a complete parallel timeline it would have its own history as well, since NuTrek's future will no longer feature the numerous temporal incursions that shaped PrimeTrek's universe so completely. In other words it wouldn't be so so much as a "Y" split but a complete splintering off of the NuTrek timeline, with its own version of history going back centuries if not to the start of the universe. And no Data's head under San Fransisco

Actually, I remember first reading that Archons comic; it was quite refreshing to have a genuinely new spin on an old story, and to me firmly established NuTrek as being in a parallel timeline of its own with no obligations to PrimeTrek, able to do its own thing with complete freedom.

BTW Christopher I just finished your DTI novels, very enjoyable with lots of lovely little touches and you did a proper job of recreating the TOS era without making it feel too TNG-ish. I'm not sure how well my "complete splinter off" theory gels with the one in your novels, but that's just my take

 

[Christopher]

I'm not so sure - as a complete parallel timeline it would have its own history as well, since NuTrek's future will no longer feature the numerous temporal incursions that shaped PrimeTrek's universe so completely. In other words it wouldn't be so so much as a "Y" split but a complete splintering off of the NuTrek timeline, with its own version of history going back centuries if not to the start of the universe. And no Data's head under San Fransisco

But that's just the point. The official interpretation is that the timeline only split off in 2233, when Nero came back. But that comic story is impossible to reconcile with that model, instead seeming to assume that the timelines were always separate. That's what makes it inconsistent.

Actually, I remember first reading that Archons comic; it was quite refreshing to have a genuinely new spin on an old story, and to me firmly established NuTrek as being in a parallel timeline of its own with no obligations to PrimeTrek, able to do its own thing with complete freedom.

Except that the comics are just a non-canonical supplement, and don't set the course for the universe any more than DC's comics set the course for the '80s Trek movies. It's the movies that establish the form or nature of the timeline. If the comics diverge from that, then it's an error of interpretation, not a binding precedent.

I do agree that the "Archons" story was a mildly interesting alternate take on the story, and its alternate explanation for the origin of the Beta III society helps explain the episode's conceit that they used 12-hour clocks with Arabic numerals and dressed in 18th- and 19th-century American garb. (Although at the same time it blatantly contradicts the episode in other ways, such as the age and history of the civilization and the appearance of the Landru computer.) It just doesn't fit the paradigm for the universe as the filmmakers define it.

BTW Christopher I just finished your DTI novels, very enjoyable with lots of lovely little touches and you did a proper job of recreating the TOS era without making it feel too TNG-ish.

Thanks!

 

[Mytran]

The official interpretation is that the timeline only split off in 2233, when Nero came back. But that comic story is impossible to reconcile with that model, instead seeming to assume that the timelines were always separate.

OK, but let me just ask: If PineKirk and ShatnerKirk travelled back in time to the year 1901, would they end up in the same timeline? And if so, and allowed time to pass at its normal rate (using either cryogenic chambers or anti-aging drugs, take your pick) would they end up in Shatner's universe or Pine's universe?

My point is that non-canon sources and creator's intent are all very well, but that doesn't always mean that they translate perfectly to the screen. And if a few moments' thought can reinterpret what they intended with a more rational outcome, shouldn't more weight be given to that? YMMV, of course (I will avoid making a Tennant derived timey-whimey comment at this point, it never helps )

...the comics are just a non-canonical supplement, and don't set the course for the universe any more than DC's comics set the course for the '80s Trek movies. It's the movies that establish the form or nature of the timeline. If the comics diverge from that, then it's an error of interpretation, not a binding precedent

Quite agree - it just gave me hope, that's all. I see what Orci was trying to do with ST:ID, but...no, that's not the place for this discussion!

Thanks!

And before I derail this thread further, could I just ask - was The Omega Glory solution your own invention? It's simultaneously very tidy and very fitting for the episode!