Is the Federation an Empire?

[T'Girl]

Remember, Section 31 answers to NO ONE.

And we know this because Luther Sloan is such a honest trustworthy person?

To all those who think that Section 31 is legitimate and that it actually is part of the Federation government ...

They definitely would appear to have government connections and support.

Hell, during DS9's last seasons, one of President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet officials was a S31 spy!

So you're saying S31 was just like the FBI under Hoover. The FBI of course being a division of the government.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Is there any reason to think the Klach D'kel Brakt is the same thing as the Briar Patch from Insurrection?

Arik Soong specifically says it is.

He specifically says it's the same place where events occur 200 years later? He says it's the Briar Patch, yes, but he also says it's what he calls it.

Since he's the famous character saying such a thing in a prequel that's already generally replete with origin stories for all the things we later know, I take that line as suggesting (if not implying) that he is the in-universe person who came up with the name as it's later used.

eta - To put it another way, if the ENT writer(s) (Sussman et al.) hadn't wanted us to believe that the setting in ENT and INS were one and the same, they would have used a different name.

 

[Xerxes1979]

I recently watched "A Taste of Armageddon". The Federation's position was undeniably imperialistic.

Robert Fox was a direct emissary of the Federation. He was going to get that port of call(coaling station) whatever the cost.

If he violated core Federation principals why would he have a ship named after him in his honor? Seems like everyone was okay with the outcome.

The nucleus of the story only required a stranded landing party to proceed as otherwise written, having Fox force the circumstances is unfortunate.

 

[T'Girl]

Robert Fox was a direct emissary of the Federation. He was going to get that port of call(coaling station) whatever the cost.

Worse than that, their instructions were to get a "treaty port."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_ports

 

[Anwar]

In other words, because they were too lazy to just build a Starbase on some uninhabited world the Federation had no problem blatantly violating another worlds' sovereignty to force them to be a Vassal World of theirs.

 

[T'Girl]

^ A portion of the surface of Eminar Seven would be extraterritorial and local law wouldn't be binding on Federation and Starfleet personnel.

Nice huh?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Remember, Section 31 answers to NO ONE.

And we know this because Luther Sloan is such a honest trustworthy person?

No, because it's true.

So you're saying S31 was just like the FBI under Hoover. The FBI of course being a division of the government.

At least the FBI has an organization and command structure that is still answerable to Congress and the President.

And you can't blame the entire FBI, let alone the whole government, for Hoover's actions.

 

[T'Girl]

Remember, Section 31 answers to NO ONE.

And we know this because Luther Sloan is such a honest trustworthy person?

No, because it's true.

But that piece of information came from Sloan, yes?

Everything that came from Sloan's mouth and his brain, is suspect.

 

[Anwar]

^ A portion of the surface of Eminar Seven would be extraterritorial and local law wouldn't be binding on Federation and Starfleet personnel.

Nice huh?

Yeah, and I bet they wouldn't have to pay for anything on the planet either if they went out for eating or shopping or whatever.

 

[T'Girl]

And they'd double park in their stretch limos and would refuse to pay parking tickets.

Oops, wrong planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And we know this because Luther Sloan is such a honest trustworthy person?

No, because it's true.

But that piece of information came from Sloan, yes?

Everything that came from Sloan's mouth and his brain, is suspect.

Sloan claimed that Section 31 *does* have legitimacy because it comes from Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet charter.

So by your own logic, why should you believe him when he says THAT, eh?

Especially when ENT revealed that the Starfleet whose charter that is, was the Earth Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet. And in that case, it wasn't any S31 operative who pointed that out, so you can believe that part.

 

[velour]

It would be nice to see a Federation police force (of some kind), or more about Starfleet Intelligence, which seems to only be referenced, and not seen.

Actually, Federation police/security was seen in action in ST3. Remember the scene where McCoy was trying to charter a ship to Genesis. He was haggling loudly with a weird looking big eared alien.

All of a sudden a guy butted into their conversation and told them not to talk about that subject in public. I think he identified himself as Federation Security.

That was actually a funny scene. But I was also bothered by it because the Fed was imposing censorship. The Fed was trying to clamp down on free speech, at least regarding the matter of Genesis. Apparently the Fed has undercover agents all over the place.

 

[Avro Arrow]

^ I don't think that the agent was just hanging around in the bar because they have undercover agents "all over the place". The implication was that he had followed McCoy there specifically, otherwise, how would he have known McCoy's name? Morrow had already ordered those who knew about Genesis not to discuss it; presumably they kept an eye on the Enterprise crew to make sure they followed those orders. And in this case, McCoy didn't, so he was taken into custody.

 

[fireproof78]

No, because it's true.

But that piece of information came from Sloan, yes?

Everything that came from Sloan's mouth and his brain, is suspect.

Sloan claimed that Section 31 *does* have legitimacy because it comes from Article 14, Section 31 of the Starfleet charter.

So by your own logic, why should you believe him when he says THAT, eh?

Especially when ENT revealed that the Starfleet whose charter that is, was the Earth Starfleet, not the Federation Starfleet. And in that case, it wasn't any S31 operative who pointed that out, so you can believe that part.

A couple of hundred years can change how an organization functions. Also, Sloan would whitewash any statements regarding S31, so I think we should treat any of his words with about a tablespoon of salt.

Or, as a bit of fun, we should treat him as Colonel Flagg from M*A*S*H:

He plays dumb

He is NOT an Intelligence Officer

And psychiatrists think he's a little nuts


On a more serious note, seems to operate within the fine line of legality. They have some legal authority but they overstep it and ignore it in the name of preserving the Federation. To them, the ends will always justify the means.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And in this case, McCoy didn't, so he was taken into custody.

I thought he took McCoy into custody because he was starting to sound loony tunes and then tried to Vulcan nerve pinch him.

 

[T'Girl]

why should you believe him when he says THAT, eh?

I wouldn't.

But I was also bothered by it because the Fed was imposing censorship. The Fed was trying to clamp down on free speech, at least regarding the matter of Genesis.

It speaks ill of the Federation that the events of TWOK, Khan, the destruction of the Reliant, and the Genesis Device was attempted to be kept secret from the public.

That details of the Genesis Device were to be kept secret would be one thing, but not the entire subject.

 

[SPCTRE]

 

[TwoJakes]

..., one of President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet officials was a S31 spy! Now tell me, how can THAT be legitimate?

If anyone should be spied upon, it should be people with large amounts of power, in high political offices.

And there's no assurance that, if the plan had gone through, it would have even worked at all. We saw it work in the movie, but that was part of the natural environment of the Ba'ku planet. If they tried to replicate it elsewhere, who's to say what would have happened?

The Enterprise crew began to feel the effects long before reaching the planet, while still out dispersed particle cloud of the Brier Patch. The planet collected the particles into ring, the planet isn't a factor in the particles effecting people.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

..., one of President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet officials was a S31 spy! Now tell me, how can THAT be legitimate?

If anyone should be spied upon, it should be people with large amounts of power, in high political offices.

Uh, no, sending covert operatives into the President's cabinet like that is a direct violation of the democratic process. There are ALREADY checks and balances in place to prevent the abuse of power.

The system must be followed, not subverted.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

..., one of President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet officials was a S31 spy! Now tell me, how can THAT be legitimate?

If anyone should be spied upon, it should be people with large amounts of power, in high political offices.

And there's no assurance that, if the plan had gone through, it would have even worked at all. We saw it work in the movie, but that was part of the natural environment of the Ba'ku planet. If they tried to replicate it elsewhere, who's to say what would have happened?

The Enterprise crew began to feel the effects long before reaching the planet, while still out dispersed particle cloud of the Brier Patch. The planet collected the particles into ring, the planet isn't a factor in the particles effecting people.

That the planet isn't a factor isn't even remotely a guarantee that the whole thing would actually work. The effects of the particles may still not work outside the environmental context of a giant particle cloud. Or there may be something special in the briar patch itself that allows the particles to work. Or removing so much of the particle cloud may destroy whatever natural engine it was that was producing the particles in the first place - meaning once the particles are used up, there's no more left to get. Or any number of other potential issues that the film never addressed at all.