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No Jokes in DC Superhero Movies

I blame Christopher Nolan, or rather the WB executives who seem to think that Nolan's approach should be applied to the entire DC Movie Universe. Most of the problems with Man Of Steel (which I generally liked, but it definitely had problems) can be chalked up to attempting to "Dark Knight-ify" Superman, which is really misguided.

What's really weird is that in the comics, it was traditionally Marvel whose universe leaned toward angst, while the DCU tended to be lighter and more colorful. Looks like their Cinematic Universes are swapping places.
 
Rumor has it that DC has a policy of "no jokes" in their superhero movies.

Since when? And did anyone tell that to Ryan Reynolds?

That's exactly it. What the articles are saying is that this may be a response to the failure of Green Lantern and the fact that the biggest superhero-movie successes WB has had were the ultra-serious Nolan trilogy. Since, for some reason, Hollywood executives persist in assuming a movie's success or failure is a function of its category rather than its individual merits, they assume that GL failed because it was a relatively humorous movie, rather than because it just wasn't that good.
 
It's one thing to say "no jokes" and another to say they don't want to start making lighter, jokier superhero movies in the style of Guardians just yet. Which I think is what the decree (if it is a decree) is most likely all about.

And I'm fine with that. Much as I like the jokier/quippier style of the Marvel movies, I don't think every superhero movie needs to be done in that same style, and I don't think the DC movies need to be done that way to be successful either (just like people can enjoy both light and fun action movies and dark and gritty action movies).

And that's not to say I want all the DC movies to be as grim as the Nolan/Snyder films either. But I do think there's plenty of room for superhero movies that are more grounded and serious than what Marvel does, and that attempt to treat these characters in a more believable and realistic way.

Personally I think both approaches are great.
 
There are plenty of jokes in DC movies.

People who think the Marvel movies are brilliant seem to think that's the only approach that should ever be taken. Well, no doubt if Warner Bros were sure they'd maximize profits by doing exactly what Marvel does they'd do it - because that's what the Marvel formula is most reliably good for, and it's what all business people want in the end. It's less reliable at producing movies that are memorable or particularly good in and of themselves, and Marvel's hitting about one in three where that's concerned (which is pretty good, really, as long as they're making that almighty buck).

Marvel produces movies the way Kraft produces macaroni and cheese - with wonderful consistency, and if you love the formula you've got to love the quality control. There's no reason that all the world has to live on macaroni and cheese, though.
 
I blame Christopher Nolan, or rather the WB executives who seem to think that Nolan's approach should be applied to the entire DC Movie Universe. Most of the problems with Man Of Steel (which I generally liked, but it definitely had problems) can be chalked up to attempting to "Dark Knight-ify" Superman, which is really misguided.

As one in possession of a film degree, I feel as though I'm obligated to wish to fellate Nolan in response to anything he produces, but I grow weary of all of these films that are homages to his dark, gritty style. It's good in measured doses, but Jeez, can we have some levity in our cinematic lives?
 
Rumor has it that DC has a policy of "no jokes" in their superhero movies.

Since when? And did anyone tell that to Ryan Reynolds?

That's exactly it. What the articles are saying is that this may be a response to the failure of Green Lantern and the fact that the biggest superhero-movie successes WB has had were the ultra-serious Nolan trilogy. Since, for some reason, Hollywood executives persist in assuming a movie's success or failure is a function of its category rather than its individual merits, they assume that GL failed because it was a relatively humorous movie, rather than because it just wasn't that good.

Exactly. The Green Lantern Corps could have been a wonderful space opera fun movie without insulting the intelligence of the audience. Instead it had all the characteristics of a 1980s or 1990s made for television action movie.
 
And that's not to say I want all the DC movies to be as grim as the Nolan/Snyder films either. But I do think there's plenty of room for superhero movies that are more grounded and serious than what Marvel does, and that attempt to treat these characters in a more believable and realistic way.

I find it a bit odd to see "serious" treated as synonymous as "realistic." Real life is often very silly. There are plenty of people who do and say ridiculous things, or who make laughable mistakes, or the like. After all, humor evolved as a response to real-life events and situations, a form of social bonding and stress relief. It's a basic part of life, and a story that's relentlessly serious and comedy-free is no more realistic than a complete spoof is.

In fact, people seem to be forgetting that Marvel's whole approach throughout the MCU has been to do things in a comparatively grounded and naturalistic way, to have these fanciful things take place in a setting that felt like the real world, and to tone down, avoid, or at least justify some of the more fanciful elements of the universe. That real-world flavor is probably a factor in their mass appeal.


The Green Lantern Corps could have been a wonderful space opera fun movie without insulting the intelligence of the audience. Instead it had all the characteristics of a 1980s or 1990s made for television action movie.

Actually I didn't think it was that bad. I think it had the bad fortune of coming out in the same year as three superlative superhero movies (Thor, Captain America, X-Men First Class) and looking bad in comparison to them. If it had come out, say, six or seven years earlier, it would've probably been considered one of the more solid superhero films out there.
 
People who think the Marvel movies are brilliant seem to think that's the only approach that should ever be taken.

You've got it backwards.

Marvel doesn't take a single approach. Each film that they make has a different tone that's most appropriate for that specific character. Captain America is a war movie/political thriller, Thor is a cheesy fantasy movie, Guardians of the Galaxy is a comedy, etc. WB is the company who thinks that a single approach is the correct answer. They saw that Nolan's films were successful and that Green Lantern was a failure, so they're jumping to the conclusion that "Serious good; comedy bad" and forcing every film into that approach regardless of how ill-fitting it is.
 
The Green Lantern Corps could have been a wonderful space opera fun movie without insulting the intelligence of the audience. Instead it had all the characteristics of a 1980s or 1990s made for television action movie.

Actually I didn't think it was that bad. I think it had the bad fortune of coming out in the same year as three superlative superhero movies (Thor, Captain America, X-Men First Class) and looking bad in comparison to them. If it had come out, say, six or seven years earlier, it would've probably been considered one of the more solid superhero films out there.

Well, I do enjoy a lot of the campy action stuff from the eighties and nineties and that's about the category I put it in. I enjoyed it in a guilty pleasure fashion, despite how many times I groaned silently over the bad jokes, silly visuals, and cliches. In the end, I felt nothing for the character and had no emotional reaction to the film. Green Lantern is perhaps my favorite super-hero and really deserved much better treatment.
 
In fact, people seem to be forgetting that Marvel's whole approach throughout the MCU has been to do things in a comparatively grounded and naturalistic way, to have these fanciful things take place in a setting that felt like the real world, and to tone down, avoid, or at least justify some of the more fanciful elements of the universe. That real-world flavor is probably a factor in their mass appeal.

Well I guess it's a matter of degree. The Marvel movies are certainly more grounded than the bright and cartoony Raimi Spidey movies, but they still don't seem to take place in the same grounded, everyday world that the Nolan/Snyder movies do (a world where people don't usually throw out hilarious, Whedon-style quips at a moments notice or in the middle of a battle, and where the villain doesn't get comically smashed into the ground again and again for a laugh).
 
I don't think there's anything particularly grounded about Snyder's work. Man of Steel has a sort of superficial realism, but it's a very self-conscious and ponderous realism that's actually rather stylized and artificial in its own way. And of course some parts of it are as ridiculously unrealistic as anything I've ever seen -- for instance, realistic buildings are designed not to collapse like houses of cards the instant they're subjected to damage.

I'd say much the same about Nolan's films, in fact -- realistic in a heightened way that is itself rather stylized. They don't feel like the everyday world to me. They feel like movies that are self-consciously constructed to be gritty and noirish and hyperdramatic.

You mention quips, but what makes the first Iron Man so effective is that the constant wisecracks don't feel affected. The majority of the dialogue and interplay among Downey, Paltrow, and Bridges was ad-libbed and thus feels very naturalistic and everyday. The dialogue in Nolan's films is more theatrical.
 
This is total nonsense. I can't think of one DC film that has completely omitted humor. Sure, if someone were keeping a tally, DC would probably have fewer jokes on a film by film basis, but none? I don't think so. Because a genre film completely devoid of humor is guaranteed to flop.

Also, I don't agree with it being strictly a Marvel/DC thing, at least not on the Marvel end. It's more accurate to strictly say the Avengers' films. (And I include Guardians here since it's being kept in the same universe.) If the definition of either is limited to what the OP implies, then, to me at least, both X-Men and ASM feel more like DC films.

And even within the various Avengers character films, there's a varying degree of darkness, serious, and even humor.

But let's be honest, if they decide to go through with Aquaman and Flash movies, does anyone honestly expect them to be anything but on the light side? A serious Barry Allen? I don't think so.

I blame Christopher Nolan, or rather the WB executives who seem to think that Nolan's approach should be applied to the entire DC Movie Universe. Most of the problems with Man Of Steel (which I generally liked, but it definitely had problems) can be chalked up to attempting to "Dark Knight-ify" Superman, which is really misguided.
I don't think that's being very fair. First of all, it's important to distinguish "dark" and "serious." MoS may have been sprinkled with a few dark moments, I don't know I'd call the overall tone of the film "dark." It was, however, very serious. But live-action Superman has always been kind of serious, even as far back as the Reeves series. The first two Reeve films, the good parts of L&C, Smallville, Superman Returns, and even bits of Superboy all had a serious slant to them. I don't see MoS as being any different.

And it's a bit disingenuous to suggest to was completely void of humor. There may not have been any out-right gut busters, but I know I chuckled a few times. Of course, humor doesn't always work for all people, but it's incorrect to say Snyder didn't make an effort.

As far as Batman being dark, Nolan had nothing to do with that. The Dark Knight is ... well ... dark. He's been that way for most of his life (Adam West not withstanding). Both Burton films were plenty dark--and so was Forever, for the most part. B&R was just bad.

It's good in measured doses, but Jeez, can we have some levity in our cinematic lives?
I think it's important to find a balance. But, again, I would challenge anyone to offer an example of any modern comic book/sci-fi/fantasy/whatever genre film that is completely humorless and austere.
 
But let's be honest, if they decide to go through with Aquaman and Flash movies, does anyone honestly expect them to be anything but on the light side? A serious Barry Allen? I don't think so.

There have certainly been times when Aquaman was a very serious and intense character. This is a guy whose baby was murdered and who once cut off his own hand to escape a deathtrap and replaced it with a hook.


But live-action Superman has always been kind of serious, even as far back as the Reeves series. The first two Reeve films, the good parts of L&C, Smallville, Superman Returns, and even bits of Superboy all had a serious slant to them. I don't see MoS as being any different.

I wouldn't say that. The George Reeves series started out fairly serious, but got much lighter in later seasons. The first two Reeve films had plenty of humor; Clark Kent was played almost entirely as a slapstick character, the Daily Planet scenes were pure screwball comedy, Lois's awkward interplay with Superman was loaded with comedic lines, the public's reactions to Superman on his first patrol were mostly comical, and Lex, Otis, and Eve were very farcical characters. And Lois & Clark was designed specifically as a romantic comedy from the word go.


As far as Batman being dark, Nolan had nothing to do with that. The Dark Knight is ... well ... dark. He's been that way for most of his life (Adam West not withstanding). Both Burton films were plenty dark--and so was Forever, for the most part. B&R was just bad.

Again, it seems you're remembering selectively. Batman was a dark, pulpy vigilante in his first year, but as soon as Robin was introduced in 1940, the stories started to get lighter in tone -- still playing it basically straight, but with a lot more wisecracking and fun. And in the '50s, once the Comics Code kicked in and put the kibosh on violence, the comics took a much more overt turn toward comedic, farcical situations. The Adam West sitcom was actually a fairly literal translation of what the comics had actually been like for the previous decade or so, and if anything they toned down the absurdity, because they didn't have Bat-Mite, stories about Batman putting on strange costume variants or being turned into a baby, or stories about Superman and Batman playing elaborate pranks on each other or competing for Lois Lane's affections.

Batman didn't start to get serious again until the '70s, and even then there was still plenty of lightness and silliness in the stories, especially in Bob Haney's The Brave and the Bold (the comic that brought us the classic "The Batman digs this day" moment). He didn't get ultra-serious until The Dark Knight Returns came along, and people forget that that was meant as a satirical deconstruction, taking the character to an absurdly dark extreme far removed from how he was actually written at the time. Unfortunately, almost everyone since then has mistaken that deliberately extreme alternative take as the model for how Batman "should" be written by default. And heck, even TDKR was full of biting humor and satire, like the grotesque, senile caricature of President Reagan or the various cynical and clueless vox pops and vacuous newsreaders.

As for the Burton films, they're only dark relative to the Adam West series. They're actually quite ludicrously comical in a lot of ways, just as campy in their own right as the West series, just with darker scenery and more violence. I mean, the big climactic threat in the second movie was penguins with miniature rocket launchers strapped to their backs. That's more ridiculous than anything Burgess Meredith ever pulled. And Batman Forever was full of neon and bright colors and lame comedy and flashy scenery -- I'd hardly call it dark except in the sense that it mostly took place at night.
 
CorporalClegg said:
Also, I don't agree with it being strictly a Marvel/DC thing, at least not on the Marvel end. It's more accurate to strictly say the Avengers' films. (And I include Guardians here since it's being kept in the same universe.)

All the Marvel films from 2008's Iron Man onward are in that universe, so by that standard they should all be included.

IreneAdler said:
I grow weary of all of these films that are homages to his dark, gritty style. It's good in measured doses, but Jeez, can we have some levity in our cinematic lives?

Meanwhile, at this point ( post-GOTG ) the Marvel viewer is probably thinking the opposite: Can we trade some of this excessive levity for some grim, dark and gritty?

Pretty please?
 
Every DC movie that bombed did so when they didn't take themselves or their characters seriously. (Or, in the case of Halle Berry's Catwoman, when they never took themselves seriously to begin with.) The only exception was Batman '66, and that was back in a time when it was impossible to take anything comic-book wise seriously anyway. So what I think they mean by 'no jokes' is this: They can laugh with the characters, but make damn sure the audience never, ever laughs at the characters.
 
All the Marvel films from 2008's Iron Man onward are in that universe, so by that standard they should all be included.
Has someone specifically stated X-Men, ASM, or the new FF reboot for that matter, are part of the Avengers' universe? There's certainly no on-screen evidence to support that, at least none that I can think of.
 
Every DC movie that bombed did so when they didn't take themselves or their characters seriously. (Or, in the case of Halle Berry's Catwoman, when they never took themselves seriously to begin with.) The only exception was Batman '66, and that was back in a time when it was impossible to take anything comic-book wise seriously anyway.

Even if that's true, it doesn't logically follow that every comedic or light-hearted movie must fail. Correlation does not prove causation, though good luck convincing any Hollywood executive of that.

And there are probably exceptions. I haven't seen Constantine, but did it take itself seriously? And Superman Returns took itself very seriously but evidently wasn't well-liked enough to warrant a continuation.


All the Marvel films from 2008's Iron Man onward are in that universe, so by that standard they should all be included.
Has someone specifically stated X-Men, ASM, or the new FF reboot for that matter, are part of the Avengers' universe? There's certainly no on-screen evidence to support that, at least none that I can think of.

I figure Set Harth means Marvel Studios films, i.e. the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe. Which is probably what you meant by "Avengers films," but the different usages can produce confusion.

(Just for the sake of accuracy, though, the X-Men films can't be in the MCU, since they're in a world where superpowers have been commonplace for decades, while the MCU portrays superpowers in humans as rare and almost always the result of weird science rather than mutation. If the FF films are in the X-Men universe, that rules them out too. And the ASM films aren't in the MCU, because ASM2 shows Oscorp Tower just blocks north of the intact MetLife Building, while in the MCU, the MetLife Building has been dismantled and rebuilt into Stark Tower.)
 
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