Voyager Hate

[Anwar]

The show didn't have any tension amongst the crew because the audience complained about the tensions not being constantly present?

Huh?

It's easier to say that the audience complained that the crew tensions they wanted didn't last the entire 7 seasons and got resolved early on.

I...what?

The audience complained that they resolved the tensions between the Maquis and Feds too fast (few differences there were, of course...) which means they wanted the tensions to last the entire series, all 7 seasons of it.

 

[Tosk]

Are you saying that because some people were disappointed that the crew tension was eliminated very early, then that it turn means that those same people wanted the tensions to last for the entire run of the series?

If that is your point, it's ludicrous. If I'm still missing your point, it's probably still ludicrous, but hard to say definitively.

I do so love these gigantic circles we seem to be spinning in. Maybe you should round up the friends you watched Voyager with originally and we can poll them. Or you could be more specific about "the audience who complained".

Remember how the audience complained that DS9 had a black man as the lead character? And how they complained about a bald man being the lead on TNG? And how when ENT started it was too confusing because they didn't know if Bakula was just playing Dr. Sam Beckett again? I also remember the audience complaining about how Spock was too white and too mannish, which is why they made Tuvok and T'Pol.

 

[Commishsleer]

I mean, Spock and McCoy would banter and disagree back and forth, so why not increase the tension?

Spock and McCoy's banter consisted primarily of taking racist swipes at one another while Kirk hypocritically let them keep it up while getting mad whenever anyone else tried to get in on the Racist Train (like Stiles).

And they had something similar going on with Janeway/Seven later on anyways.

I don't think you get the McCoy Spock relationship.
They really are friends.

And Seven is calling Janeway on her bull%^# just like McCoy calls Spock on his.

 

[fireproof78]

Regarding the Starfleet/Maquis tension: Berman did not want it in the show because it would be "tiresome."

Mike Piller said it was UPN interference that caused it primarily, Berman's power was nominal at best.

Which is not how Berman or Braga presented it in the behind the scenes info I read.

The lack of direction for the show is honestly what killed it. Voyager feels meandering and pointless, and again, this points back to the creative staff.

That's what happens when you don't have a real plot.

This is true. It is also not the fault of the fans at the lack of a plot.

Beltran was giving a crap performance from Day One, which is partially why Chakotay got sidelined (because he was just terrible!). He has no right to complain.

Why not? He has no right to express his opinion?

Moore is a whiny bitch who has always run away with his tail tucked between his legs whenever he has to deal with outside interference. His own attempt at a Voyager-like show fell apart after only 2 seasons.

Again, behind the scenes info does not seem to indicate this.

Having conflict among the crew doesn't have to happen in every episode, but it certainly has its place.

Then the audience shouldn't have complained over the tensions not constantly being present.

Seeing as how tension was removed pretty by the second episode, there really is not much to complain about.

I mean, Spock and McCoy would banter and disagree back and forth, so why not increase the tension?

Spock and McCoy's banter consisted primarily of taking racist swipes at one another while Kirk hypocritically let them keep it up while getting mad whenever anyone else tried to get in on the Racist Train (like Stiles).

Not really. It consisted of them disagreeing over points of view, often with teasing as a part of it.

And they had something similar going on with Janeway/Seven later on anyways.

Which demonstrates that tension isn't a bad thing.

I still wonder at how the audience manages to complain and ruin everything, when all the BTS evidence I read indicates that the problems were with the creative staff, and as you said, a lack of direction. And that can't be put on the fans.

Also, if Berman and Braga were so nominal in their power, then Enterprise should have been better, when they were the ones to start the show off from the start. But, Enterprise suffered from the same lack of direction.

For what it's worth, most in my circle of friends like Voyager, and I have two friends who still prefer it as their favorite Trek.

Voyager had a lot of potential that could have been very different from the rest of Trek. But, it was content to use a TNG formula that did not serve the premise of the show.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I don't think you get the McCoy Spock relationship.
They really are friends.

And Seven is calling Janeway on her bull%^# just like McCoy calls Spock on his.

It's also a male human habit to insult friends. "Charlie, you ugly son of a b*tch, how the hell are ya?" I hear stuff like this all the time. I find it quite endearing, truth be told.

 

[Ithekro]

A friend of mine says that it is fine to insult your friends, because you know they won't beat you up for it.

 

[Armored Saint]

Why not? He has no right to express his opinion?

Beltran and Moore have no right to express their opinion because you're "wrong", so any of your exemples or arguments are "wrong". You could have quoted anyone and he would have tried to discredit them by a cheap value judgement.

This thread was interresting, but that cherrypicking is really counterproductive.

 

[Anwar]

Are you saying that because some people were disappointed that the crew tension was eliminated very early, then that it turn means that those same people wanted the tensions to last for the entire run of the series?

Well, yes.

I also remember the audience complaining about how Spock was too white and too mannish, which is why they made Tuvok and T'Pol.

I remember that Tuvok got complaints that if there were Vulcans with different pigments they should be black like humans would be and that he should've had green skin or red skin instead.

I don't think you get the McCoy Spock relationship.
They really are friends.

Replace Spock with Sulu and have McCoy constantly saying stuff like "Why you yellow-skinned, slant-eyed son of a bitch!" and see how "friendly" they'd come off to the audience.

Which is not how Berman or Braga presented it in the behind the scenes info I read.

Even Berman agreed that the show not having a plot was detrimental.

This is true. It is also not the fault of the fans at the lack of a plot.

It's their fault for constantly, endlessly complaining over stuff that could've been a good plot for the series (The Void or Scorpion).

Why not? He has no right to express his opinion?

Cause it was his own damn fault for giving a terrible performance.

Again, behind the scenes info does not seem to indicate this.

Just look at his reaction whenever he's faced with Network interference. He either blubbers like a baby or runs out of there.

Not really. It consisted of them disagreeing over points of view, often with teasing as a part of it.

TOS had it easy with its smaller cast, cause they formed a Freudian Trio: McCoy was the ID, Spock the SuperEgo and Kirk the Ego who had to decide between the two of them. It worked well because there were only 3 central characters and they had spectacular chemistry with one another.

Of course, the chemistry was just dumb luck but good luck convincing anyone of that.

Why they threw in McCoy and Spock both being racists I don't know.

Which demonstrates that tension isn't a bad thing.

Mild tensions between two characters, yes. Hot tensions between the entire cast (of like 9 people) for 7 years straight? That's just nutty.

Voyager had a lot of potential that could have been very different from the rest of Trek. But, it was content to use a TNG formula that did not serve the premise of the show

The show had conceptual problems, moreso than other Treks. It was rushed and needed more time put into it.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't so much tension? Not between the Feds and the Maquis, but between posters in this thread?

Yes, expanding anecdotal evidence to suggest a greater confluence of opinion makes for a poor argument. That said, pretending that there was NOT a large portion of Trekdom that found fault with the setup and execution of Voyager is also foolish.

Move along, please.

 

[fireproof78]

Wouldn't it be nice if there wasn't so much tension? Not between the Feds and the Maquis, but between posters in this thread?

Yes, expanding anecdotal evidence to suggest a greater confluence of opinion makes for a poor argument. That said, pretending that there was NOT a large portion of Trekdom that found fault with the setup and execution of Voyager is also foolish.

Move along, please.

I wonder, if the hatred towards Voyager is more of a timing thing, as Trek was starting to decline in terms of viewership anyway. Regardless of opinion on Voyager, there was a decrease in the audience of Trek, in general, if one tracks such numbers.

So, is there a negative association between the ending of Trek on screen and Voyager?

Also, what are other people's opinions of Voyager? I know I discussed this before but I will relate my personal experience again.

I don't hate Voyager. That requires an emotional investment that I really don't want to spend on a TV show, Trek or not Trek. That said, I remember being excited about the new Trek, and reading different interviews about how the make-up was done for the Kazon and Neelix (good times) as well as different ideas of how the ship would be different from a Galaxy calls, both inside and out.

I also wish Species 8472 had been featured more.

 

[Tosk]

Are you saying that because some people were disappointed that the crew tension was eliminated very early, then that it turn means that those same people wanted the tensions to last for the entire run of the series?

Well, yes.

You honestly don't see how one thing does not equal the other?

Mild tensions between two characters, yes. Hot tensions between the entire cast (of like 9 people) for 7 years straight? That's just nutty.

No one said "hot tension between the whole cast" though, did they? Of the main cast, only two were Maquis.

Move along, please.

Just to be clear, are you saying that we aren't allowed to discuss it any longer?

That said, pretending that there was NOT a large portion of Trekdom that found fault with the setup and execution of Voyager is also foolish.

Who claimed that?

 

[Anwar]

You honestly don't see how one thing does not equal the other?

If they only wanted the tensions to last for a while and then have everyone be adults and get over it, then that's what they'd say they wanted.

They didn't say that.

No one said "hot tension between the whole cast" though, did they? Of the main cast, only two were Maquis.

They more or less did.

 

[Tosk]

They didn't say that.

They more or less did.

Who is they?

 

[Anwar]

They didn't say that.

They more or less did.

Who is they?

VOY Haters.

 

[Tosk]

Are you just making up these answers as you go?

 

[Salinga]

Beltran was giving a crap performance from Day One, which is partially why Chakotay got sidelined (because he was just terrible!). He has no right to complain.

Why not? He has no right to express his opinion?

Opinion: Superset
Complaining: Subset.

Not comparable, like "I dont like fish." "What? You dont like eating?"

 

[Misfit Toy]

Move along, please.

Just to be clear, are you saying that we aren't allowed to discuss it any longer?

Not at all, but, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of the discussion is circular, and I don't think that you or Anwar are going to change your opinions.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Move along, please.

Just to be clear, are you saying that we aren't allowed to discuss it any longer?

Not at all, but, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of the discussion is circular, and I don't think that you or Anwar are going to change your opinions.

I can't even follow what the debate is about.

 

[Anwar]

Are you just making up these answers as you go?

They're based on 20 years worth of conversations with VOY Haters and what they disliked about the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Just to be clear, are you saying that we aren't allowed to discuss it any longer?

Not at all, but, as you mentioned earlier, a lot of the discussion is circular, and I don't think that you or Anwar are going to change your opinions.

I can't even follow what the debate is about.

Well, you see, there was this show called Voyager and some people didn't like it and now it is hated more than other Trek. Also, something, something Dark Side

Regarding Beltran's complaint, I think he had an opinion, and it devolved in to complaining, partially due to Seven of Nine's influence, and the obvious fan love that she received and the lack of performance Beltran gave.

It doesn't invalidate his criticism that the focus was turned more to Seven, and gives a certain level of insight in to how the show was run.

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