The Walking Dead Season 4

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Dream, May 6, 2013.

  1. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

    Jul 22, 2004
    Arizona, USA
    Wow, that was a hell of an episode. I definitely did not expect the ending. I can definitely understand why Rick sent her off, she overacted to a situation that they barely understood at that point, and then continued to act recklessly. As for what she did, I can understand the thought process that lead to it, but I don't agree with it. At that point the sickness had barely started to infect that prison, and they didn't really know exactly how it was going to behave on a regular basis. Just because one person dies doesn't mean it's going to kill everybody who gets it, in the right situations the flu can kill, that doesn't mean if I get the flu tomorrow I'm going to be dead by the end of the week. Now, what she did might have been necessary eventually, I just think she should have waited until she had more information. They were isolated, and weren't an immediate thread.
    I was wondering if perhaps her leaving was actually the set up for the spin-off. Maybe it could follow Carol in the Rick role in a new group.
  2. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I don't think TWD makes Romero irrelevant. If anything, Romero's influence obviously continues to enrich our lives with great storytelling in his genre of invention.

    "Relevance" and "freshness" are two separate ideas. ;) For example, some may think it's relevant they can still speak English in England, but to other folks, it seems a natural entitlement not worth a second thought. Is it? (I find Piers Morgan's tirades against the US right to bear arms hilariously ironic - but alas, not satirical). ANYWAY....

    Carol lost me when she traumatized the little girls losing their father by letting them hang around for the euthanasia - let alone shoving a knife in their hands and telling them - not only to kill someone but start with their father.

    She went rogue and she knew it - otherwise she wouldn't be so willing to actually go rogue in the end.

    Carol should have waited five minutes for Karen & David to turn and avoid creating a lot of drama. It would have made no difference. So yeah, to me it's pretty clear she consciously stepped over the line cause she's high on her new badassery. Problem is, everyone else has to pay for it.

    I hope it's not the last we see of her though. I'm also glad Carl's not (yet) stepping into Shane's antagonistic role. He's still got a lot to learn from his father.

    If you knew Shane and you knew Rick - I think it would be pretty clear what was coming. By that time Rick had not lost control that I can think of. His fighting Tyreese though is starting to show the wear around the edges of his self-control.

    Tyreese is a time bomb.

    George Romero's (albeit disappointing) dismissal of TWD for its lack of satire or political criticism may not be the fault of the TWD producers' values. It may reflect changes in the culture and industry that are bigger than any one series.

    Changes like the comicification of entertainment. The conventionalization of big budget productions - you don't see shows that are raw, quirky or daring or adversarial as much as you used to; though offending people for its own sake is common.

    Satire takes a sense of humor, which is nowadays reserved for ninety minute dick and fart jokes. Tina Fey and John Stewart notwithstanding. Network television can be very toothless about genuine social antagonism. Oh, and "irony" - ain't it.

    Case in point - we're watching zombie shows. Once, that was a new idea. There are still new ideas to be made, instead of generation after generation of franchises and tropes and remakes.

    In other words, part of his criticism may be the fact that it's not the 60's and 70's any more. Much culture today is clean and safe, cautious, over-planned and anodyne. Focused on the effects; and sometimes taking itself too seriously.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  3. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

    Jun 11, 2003
    RJDiogenes of Boston
    It's too bad that Romero doesn't like Walking Dead. It's certainly different from his style of storytelling, but so what? Variety is the spice of life.
  4. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Jul 16, 2001
    Kansas City
    Actually the oldest of the little girls suggested she be the one to euthanaise their father but backed out.
  5. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

    Jan 2, 2011
    Sacramento, CA
    Yea, that's definitely a relevant point many keep leaving out. Carol was going to do it, it was only after the girl insisted it be a family member that Carol relented and allowed it, and only after she froze (Putting herself in danger) that Carol encouraged/ tried to "force" her to do it.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  6. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    May 24, 2006
    Escaped from Delta Vega plotting to hand over another person to a certain death save your own ass...oh, I mean "protect the group."

    Actually, the producers of the various AMC series pride themselves on being "raw," or "daring," simply because of the content--like the last 20 years of drama series thinking content cannot be relevant unless pushing buttons (incessantly), being offensive or depressing in one way or another,
  7. TheMurph

    TheMurph Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jul 18, 2005
    Shouldn't he be condemned by his actions and not his thoughts/plans? After some soul searching he realized he couldn't do it.
  8. DarthTom

    DarthTom Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 19, 2005
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Slow moving zombies and everyone that has adopted the, "Romero Style," on how they move and act is an homage to him and the genre that he started.

    That he fails to see that is baffling.
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Admiral Admiral

    Sep 4, 2008
    A Long Time Ago...
    Exactly. He thought about it, but decided not to do it in the end.
  10. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Commodore Commodore

    Apr 24, 2006
    Calgary, Alberta
    Slight tangent here, but Chris Jericho was awesome as a guest on Talking Dead afterwards, yes? I normally just skip through the random episode discussion to get to the behind the scenes stuff (reading the thread here is much more fulfilling!), but I was blown away by how prepared he was and how eloquently he presented his points. Made Gillian Jacobs seem mute by comparison, and I know she can be talkative too.

    Yonks better than what they had last week with Marylin Manson, for whom Hardwick had several indirect jabs this time. Not that Manson would be watching... It seems to be he wouldn't even remember being there last week.

  11. Shanndee

    Shanndee Commodore Commodore

    Sep 6, 2010
    Yes. I was also amazed at how prepared and well spoken he was. He had points that he definitely wanted to make and he made sure that they were all addressed.

    Two thumbs up!
  12. Mojochi

    Mojochi Commodore Commodore

    Aug 18, 2007
    Hell, the only reason Merle attempted to do it himself was because he, much like anyone who knows Rick more than 10 minutes, knew he didn't have the stomach to hand someone over to be executed for no reason, even if he was conflicted & questioning himself about it

    Condemning someone for having doubts or being conflicted shows no respect for their ongoing crisis. People in crisis don't always have the right answer at hand
  13. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

    Dec 2, 2001
    Hotel Transylvania
    Surprised about Carol being exiled from the group.

    Not expecting her to be gone for too long though. When Daryl "left" in season 2 he returned back to the group at the the very end of the following episode! ;)
  14. FreezeC77

    FreezeC77 Commodore Commodore

    Dec 26, 2002
    Huge upgrade over Marilyn Manson and his long-winded tangents that trailed off.
  15. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Jul 16, 2001
    Kansas City
    Really, talking chimp would have been an improvement over Manson. Next week should be good to with Adam Savage.
  16. shivkala

    shivkala Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Apr 26, 2004
    Patrolling Sector 2814
    I don't get people being surprised about Chris Jericho. Yes, hew as a good guest, but it seems like people were expecting Marilyn Manson part II this past week! Granted, I don't know much about him, but it's not like he's the first guest to come prepared. If memory serves, it was another wrestler, C.M. Punk who came prepared last year, coincidentally sharing the couch with an actress from Community, Yvette Nichole Brown

    On his new "game show", @Midnight, Hardwick took some jabs at Manson.

    And for everything said about Manson it (a) got us talking about Talking Dead more than I think we ever have and (b) was entertaining in a, "staring at a car accident" kind of way.

    My issue with Rick was his comment to Carol about her finding another group. The comment just came off as akin to "there are other fish in the sea," which is odd, seeing as how the number of humans keeps dropping. Granted there was the pair we met this episode (now at most a single guy), Tyrese's group, the Woodbury group, and that's all we've seen since season 2. It's not like Carol will be likely to run into other groups easily. Car or no car, in my opinion, sending someone out there to live on their own is a death sentence.

    And what's to stop her from showing up at the prison? Seeing as how they are now run by a council, which Carol is (was) a member of, I don't think they'd be happy that Rick made the decision unanimously. Tyrese aside, I don't see the rest of the council agreeing with the exile of Carol, even when it comes to light what she did. I don't necessarily think they'd condone it, but I can't see any of them agreeing she needed to be exiled.
  17. Triskelion

    Triskelion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    I agree, RJ. It's like sibling rivalry or something. They are more alike than they are different.

    Oh, thanks x 2 - I must have misheard the telly again. I'm like that Second Hand News guy on Weekend Update. Honestly? I have to watch TWD with captions.

    Who, Michonne? Michonne and he are both warriors. The others are civilians. I really don't think these acts are "equal" but definitely, as you bring up, worth debate. Further, at that time, Michonne was not, in fact, a member of their group. She was an outside threat being assessed. Her fate could have easily gone either way "for the protection of the group" or even "saving one's own ass." Like the yelling hiker on the road whom Rick ignored. Why? Because by that time, trust of strangers no longer could be be afforded.

    Is Carol turning into another Shane? Maybe exiling her was the humane thing to do, and would allow Rick to avoid some particularly painful history repeating itself.

    However, at no point do I think Rick acts to "save his own ass." Everything he does is for the protection of others - maybe the group, maybe his kids selfishly - but I have not seen him act out of cowardice or avarice. Then again, it's entirely open to interpretation.

    "You get to come back" seems to be a theme that has repeated itself in Carl's case, thanks to Rick's efforts - a theme that Carol would eventually have to face with her own two new "daughters." Again, it's interpretation - did she tell them not to call her "Mom" for their own protection? Or for her own inability to get close again? As for Carl and Rick, they still have a lot to teach each other.

    Rick isn't perfect - but if you think he's a villainous plotter acting out of purely selfish motives, I don't think that would fully account for the popularity of his lead role in this show. You might consider that he does not come off as that type of character for the show's producers and majority fan base. Of course interpretations are like snowflakes. You can't argue with them, and sometimes you need a shovel! :lol: You're right to judge his behaviors. What is "good" or "right" is a powerful thread in this story.

    Well, sure - and I definitely agree with this description of many dramas in recent history. The TWD producers, et al, do a great job, no question. But they don't define the zombie genre.

    In this latest episode, the gas station zombie was killed with a you-know-what. This was one of the only humorous kills I can recall in this series. Humor - satire - was part of the charm of original zombie movies that helped crystallize the genre's popularity. "1001 Ways to Kill a Zombie" type gags. In Romero's 1978 Dawn of the Dead, one zombie stepped up a wall near a helicopter and shaved the top half of his skull off - hilarious! TWD doesn't have this kind of fun, opting instead for gruesome decomposition and carnage. There can be more to this story than drama and carnage. As it is now, TWD is largely escapism. A soap opera video game. Delicious - but rarely commenting on our present society, let alone challenging it or daring us to change, or showing us how.

    I don't have any answers, but I get some of Romero's criticism. You know what I'd like to see? Robert Heinlein's take on Zombie Apocalypse survival. That would be truly challenging, and not just story based on visual effects with interminable (ha) soap opera emotional fluctuations sans happy endings. Don't get me wrong, today's FX RULE. Though I do miss film's resolution, hopefully it will become more possible, available and affordable in digital formats.

    Zombies can be more than gore fodder. They are supposed to be us.
  18. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

    Jun 11, 2003
    RJDiogenes of Boston
    Seriously. How many people get to invent a genre? He should be honored.

    Yeah, I don't understand this competitive mindset. There's room for more than one Zombie Apocalypse. Well, you know what I mean. :rommie:
  19. KGator

    KGator Commander Red Shirt

    May 28, 2013
    Mentally? . . . that's debatable.
    hahaha, EXACTLY! When I first saw that I couldn't get over it. How exactly was her leg severed and then a hundred and fifty feet from the rest of her body? And are these zombies eating the bones too? It makes me laugh at some of the plot holes used for dramatic effect in this show (obviously the leg was there with the tatoo to help show the viewer the victim was the woman).

    Plus, Rick and Carol (the two healthy ones) stayed together for security but the two cripples . . . "you just separate and run away if you find any Walkers . . . you know, since you can't really defend yourselves and all. Crippled people running, that's an effective strategy right?" It reminds me of the backpacker Rick and crew left behind last season and then grabbed his backpack after he was torn to shreds. A lot of random strangers just end up the "red shirt landing party member" on this show. Zombiefodder.
  20. Kytee

    Kytee Commander Red Shirt

    Jun 18, 2003
    Calgary, AB
    Loved the episode, I felt Ricks decision to exile Carol happened early in the episode as he seemed to be packing extra gear before they left the prison. One of the many things that I enjoy about the walking dead is situations like this; I can understand both Rick and Carols choices, and in some ways I think they were both right for what they did.

    With regards to Daryl I think it's important to remember he has already said whoever did the killing deserves to be shot, of course I can see him reconsidering when he finds out it was Carol and even a bit relieved when Rick says he exiled her not killed her. I could see it playing out something like this
    please forgive my absolute horrible dialog, this is just for example.
    Rick : I found David and Karens killer
    Tyrese :WHO!
    Daryl : Lets get them out here and deal with it
    Rick : It was Carol, I've already dealt with it
    Daryl : Is she dead?
    Rick : I exiled her
    Tyrese : Where , she needs to die
    Rick : I'm not telling you where; you want to kill her, then grab you hammer and go find her, but if you walk out those gates don't you dare think about coming back. Make a choice. Now.

    Obviously Tyrese chooses to stay and we get a warm scene later between him and Michonne where she discusses her futile hunt for the Governor and he begins to get over his desire to hunt Carol.

    With regards to the opening scene
    The way the little girl talked about becoming a walker was eerily similar to the crazy twin who dismembered his sibling; coupled with the younger sister saying she was messed up in an earlier episode; and the fact that she was so upset about 'Nick' being killed. I have a strong feeling the story is taking her in the same direction. when she was talking to Carol I had this wired thought that what if she had already killed the other folks she was locked up with ?