The Walking Dead Season 4

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Dream, May 6, 2013.

  1. Reverend

    Reverend Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    What Carol did was wise, pragmatic, very practical and utterly wrong on every level.

    Whether her attempt to contain the infection was successful or not is immaterial. She took it upon herself to euthanize two helpless people in their sleep. How can anyone possibly trust her knowing that she could something like that again?

    It wasn't her call, it wasn't her duty, it wasn't her responsibility. Ironically it's a similar attitude to the one Shane had when he wanted to call off the search for Sophia. "Someone has to step up and do the hard thing" or words to that effect. Except what he wanted and what Carol did was just the opposite. It was the easiest thing in the world. The quick fix. The simple solution. For all Carol's talk of not being afraid and never giving up, she's the one that acted purely out of fear.

    Those people could easily have been rendered harmless even if they turned. They are in a prison, no? Those doors have pretty sturdy locks and I'm sure there's still a whole lot of cuffs and leg irons all over the joint. It doesn't take much imagination to see what kind of precautions could have been taken.
     
  2. Jax

    Jax Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    The Broken Kingdom of Great Britain
    Glad Carol is gone I have no time for her character she went off the deep end like Shane and there is no way back. I only regret Tyresse won't get his revenge. Rick was right she simply can't be trusted she would kill people at her whim soon as she considered them dangerous to her and her little brats she thinks she's mothering.
     
  3. Kestrel

    Kestrel Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Location:
    Eden Prime
    I still disagree with Carl's action and think Rick was completely justified to take his gun away - but there's no comparison between what he did and what Carol did. Carl was protecting people in the middle of a combat situation and there was a potential imminent threat - Karen and David were contained and no threat. Also, Carl's a preteen - Carol's a middle-aged (?) adult.

    And her trying to compare what she did with Rick killing Shane is just laughable, since Shane was actively trying to kill Rick. Same as with her "they were the only ones infected" bullshit - one person had already died, and viruses/pathogens don't just magically affect two or three people. Rick was right that people wouldn't be able to trust her if they knew the truth.

    Daryl will be upset but he'll understand, and Tyrese will accept the logic of Rick's decision even if his bloodlust (it's pretty obvious now why he's made such an effort to be a nice guy) doesn't like it.

    If Carol comes back with another group to take the prison (highly unlikely for her to lead like that) or joins up with the Governor, it'll be as a villain.
     
  4. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Location:
    RJDiogenes of Boston
    Wow, that was something else. Rick unquestionably made a very bad call here. He basically did the same thing that Carol did-- he made a unilateral decision without consulting the council or the community. This is especially egregious since he was tasked to be the community's police officer.

    Carol felt that the two sick people represented an imminent threat to the community, which is a reasonable opinion. But what she should have done was gone to the council and made a proposal. And, of course, they should have shot it down because of not killing the living and not euthanizing people for the greater good and so forth, but that part is beside the point.

    Rick learned that Carol was the killer. He should have locked her up, and they should have put her on trial as best they could-- judge, prosecution, defense, and jury. Then the community should have decided on her guilt and punishment, whether it be imprisonment, exile, or execution. To do this after giving up his leadership to the council was supremely hypocritical.
     
  5. Shanndee

    Shanndee Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Location:
    Canada
    Well said RJD. This is exactly what I have been trying to say to some people on another site, but I haven't been very successful in getting my point across yet. Thank you for assuring me that I'm not "crazy" :)
     
  6. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    I think locking her up, giving her a "fair trial" and all of that is pure fantasy given the environment they're living in. I don't think Rick made the greatest of choices but he did what he thought was best for the group, the best for Carol and most importantly the best for him and his children. I mean, really, how much can she really be trusted now is she sneaked off to KILL two members of their group who, really, were not a threat? (Again, considering they were locked up and contained.)
     
  7. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Are you watching the show at all? The intelligent do not screw around with those who are on their way to becoming walkers, as explained in the examples a page ago.

    Rick cannot keep his story straight: if he was pushing him and "compromising" the group all along, then exlile him. He did not, so Shane's blood is on his hands, as he knew what was coming. Oh, and there's that wee lil incident where Shane tried to kill him during the trip to exile Randall.

    What did Rick do after that? Invite his good 'ol buddy right back in a position to threaten him.

    He had every chance to deal with the problem before the events of "Better Angels," but did not, and again, in the season 2 finale, he was of the opinion that Shane was a problem all along--not just in that walk in the woods, yet he continued to do nothing about it. Some might think he just played Shane with that talk at the end of their fight ("18 Miles Out") just to "save him for later."

    He's full of it.

    Finally, for those who think Rick is some moral compass, this is the same guy who ordered Merle to hand deliver Michonne into the Governor's hands--knowing what would happen to her. It matters not what he thought after the fact, he was willing to send a living person to her death.

    This is the guy some are defending?

    On the other hand, he kicks Carol out for acting in the best interests of everyone. Considering his quaetionable past detailed above, he should rocket his boot up his own butt for decisions with far worse implications.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  8. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Yeah, the cop who wanted to deliver Michonne to the Governor.

    How did he earn that badge?

    ...for many reasons.
     
  9. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Er.... no. Rick's plan was to deliver Michonne himself with a group. Merle took it on his own to deliver Michonne himself, believing Rick wouldn't be able to do it.

    Regardless of Rick's stories, we saw what happened. Rick killed Shane (per-emptively) in self-defense.
     
  10. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Location:
    Right here buddy.
    I didn't like seeing Carol leave but I'm with Rick on that episode. True he made a unilateral decision without consulting the council but he didn't kill anyone, Ty would have opened her "fail trial" cell and killed her if they considered exile, and then he'll get exiled and they're down two. Plus Rick has the leadership role on his record, the rest of the group will understand.
     
  11. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    So, he's a coward who dreams up the death of a fellow survivor, but cannot carry it out himself (unless his validation-seeking wife is involved). Not a good picture.

    He's as much a murderer as he accused Shane of plotting, as Shane was ready to resign himself (to life without Lori, Carl and the unborn child), when Rick handed him the gun. Rick did not need to kill him, but Mr. Moral Compass--without a care about taking a life / the effect on others--murdered Shane.

    ....yeah, Carol's the one with problems?
     
  12. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Location:
    RJDiogenes of Boston
    No, you're definitely not. :)

    That's why I said "as best they could." Obviously they won't find anybody impartial. Rick doing what he thought was best for the group was the same excuse that Carol used. It's an excuse that has been used to justify a lot of atrocities throughout history. These are people who are trying to hang on to civilization in the face of an apocalypse and that's the approach they should be using, and I'm sure the council will not be happy with him. And they shouldn't be.
     
  13. PKerr

    PKerr Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    Tampa Fl
    I agree with Carol being banished from the community and IMO I agree with Rick’s reasons for doing so but in the same token Rick is being hypocritical in his actions, he basically says she took actions for the community without consulting the counsel first but he is doing the same exact thing.

    I’ve see a few comments about carol hooking up with the governor and if that happens I’ll have a hard time enjoying the show as IMO that would never happen, Carol didn’t seem to have any animosity toward Rick or the group in fact she seem like she kind of agreed with Rick, she sure didn't fight his decision very hard to be this newly formed fighter character.

    I also wouldn’t want to see the Spin off show be about Carol as IMO she is not that interesting of a character, I think some respect she is a pathetic character with no new background to bring as we pretty much know all of her history now.
    I also can’t see her lasting that long on her own as she is not a bad@ss like Michonne, oh the writers tried the toughen her up in the past 6-7 episodes but Melissa McBride (actress wise) is a clumsy zombie killer, you see it in the way she runs, moves and kills.

    When they do the Spin off I’d like to see the show center around a military perspective, I’d like to get more info on how the government and military supposedly fell and maybe get some hints on how the ZA started and how widespread it actually is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  14. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago IL
    Regarding Carol & the Governor...have they met before? Or seen each other? Would the governor recognize Carol? Could he have a plausible story to explain his eye? (He could be a more undercover governor in a new group, and create a new cover story).

    (for a short while).

    With Carols exile -- it was somewhat mutual. Don't forget -- she was right there when Tyrese pointed out the bodies, and she seemed terrified at his reaction. She KNOWS she would have to face Tyrese, and probably not survive. Yes, she's strong against Zombies. But that isn't "personal" -- he would speak loud & clear & remind her of her inhumanity. HArder to fight against (emotionally)

    Not sure where they will go with Carol....I think it's good for some characters to leave in a way other than death.

    For the difference between Rick & Shane and Rick & Carol......With Shane, this was just what , 2-3 weeks since Rick woke up. He just went through some IMMENSE emotions,,,,waking up to Walkerworld, shooting a little girl Walker, being reunited with his family, leaving Merle to perhaps his death, finding hope in the CDC and having it snatched away, seeing a little girl Carl's age become a walker, and then be the one to kill her, finding out about his wife's affair.

    And in this crazy world, the man who has been his best friend since childhood -- the one guy he OUGHT to trust in the Apocalypse, SEEMS to want to murder him and take his wife. It seems logical to me about how he "let" Shane get him into that situation.


    With Carol, he's had about 6 months of peace, to recover, so he's had his mind a bit cleared from the crazy time after Lori's death. He's thought through the consequences and anticipated fights. Like people mentioned, she's taking serious actions WITHOUT consulting interested parties (not just Tyrese with Karen, but more importantly, Carl and his LIVING now-rational father, and the other kids). I can understand her internal logic -- but in my opinion, still wrong.

    I think we've had some good drama & interesting things to debate this season.
     
  15. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Rick's "doing what's best for the group" included him exiling a murderer.

    Carol's "doing what's best for the group" included her murdering two people who posed no threat.

    Those are two very different things and extremes. I doubt the council, as an entity, will have too many problems with what Rick did as near as I can tell they seem to want Rick back involved on some level. The only individual who'll have a big problem with things is going to be Daryl and even he may understand what happened once Rick explains Carol killed the two in death-row.
     
  16. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Location:
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Then he should have exiled himself for murdering Shane and planning to hand Michonne over to the Governor, knowing what would happen to her.

    He's a hypocrite.

    They were sick--and heading in the same direction of the nerd kid who turned into a walker. The disease course has been established, and in the next episode preview, the doctor will show what happens beyond coughing (our last view of Karen) when he bleeds from the eyes and mouth.

    Bleeding from the eyes and mouth only goes in one direction.

    Carol was justified. Her eyes were wide open to what was happening.

    Daryl is not going to just sit back and say, "oh, Rick---all on your own, you kick Carol out without involving everyone else in the discussion. Good job, Lord and Master Ricky."

    ...and do not be surprised if the young sisters--now trained by Carol--will do more than shed a few tears over Rick's action over the course of the season.
     
  17. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    IN FUCKING SELF-DEFENSE!!!

    At a time when the whole group was at risk from The Governor and Rick was Ricktator and Chief. Also he DIDN'T hand her over speaks larger.
     
  18. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    Yeah, it's not really hypocritical with Shane. There was no council then and it was a life and death situation. With the handing over of Michonne, there still wasn't a council, but Rick asked Herschel if he was doing the right thing, and then decided against it.

    I don't know how anyone can say that what Carol was doing was rational. It was absolutely stupid because of the complete lack of understanding about how disease is transmitted.
     
  19. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Location:
    Langley
    Rationality is partially defined by circumstance. It's a world where dead people get up and try to bite living people. Not knowing how disease is being transmitted is irrelevant if you know for a fact that it is, somehow, being transmitted, it's fatal, and people who die get up again and try to eat living people. And knowing how disease is ransmitted is still irrelevant in an environment where proper isolation and treatment are impossible.

    Carol did what she could with the knowledge she had and the circumstances she was given to work with. Exile her all you want, but i'm not jumping down her throat about it.
     
  20. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Location:
    St. Paul, MN
    It's absolutely relevant. She thought that she should kill the people who were in quarantine and then burn their bodies as if that were a solution to the transmission. It's entirely ignorant of how diseases work and is more of a throwback to how primitive people dealt with disease. She should know better.