How many continuities are there in Trek Literature?

[Therin of Andor]

Now we just need to see the mirror universe and Kelvin timeline versions of Shantherin th'Clane!

Actually, I once started a Mirror Universe fanfic which was to explain who the little escaping figure from Epsilon Nine was in TMP. Remember how the FX miniature puppet smooshes against the camera as Epsilon Nine is digitized behind him? It was a Mirror Universe version of Therin! (With an evil mustache, of course.)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

how does the litverse react towards the problems of 2387 onwards.

Unfortunately, they're not allowed to do that.

Oh, how I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. The FL's (Fucking Lawyers) literally will not let the litverse deal with the destruction of Romulus or anything derived from that, because that event happened in an Abrams film, and that's off limits to all novel writers.

And if you're wondering how the litverse is ever supposed to mention Romulus, or any Romulan for that matter, WITHOUT mentioning the fact that Romulus is now a giant cloud of space dust...you're in the same boat as the rest of us. God, you gotta love the Fucking Lawyers, don't ya?

(yes, yes, yes, I am VERY much aware that novel writers don't have to hit 2387 for awhile now and can still tell stories set before that time. But they can't keep that up forever. Sooner or later they will have to move on past that date. Hopefully by that time, the Fucking Lawyers will have reconsidered their stance.)

 

[Jinn]

Oh, how I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. The FL's (Fucking Lawyers) literally will not let the litverse deal with the destruction of Romulus or anything derived from that, because that event happened in an Abrams film, and that's off limits to all novel writers.

Query: Why das't won't the FLs let the Litverse mention at least the Prime universe portions of ST09?

And if you're wondering how the litverse is ever supposed to mention Romulus, or any Romulan for that matter, WITHOUT mentioning the fact that Romulus is now a giant cloud of space dust...you're in the same boat as the rest of us. God, you gotta love the Fucking Lawyers, don't ya?

I suppose Romulus could just be set together by some deus ex machina...

I think this is a depiction of how to slowly descend into insanity.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Query: Why das't won't the FLs let the Litverse mention at least the Prime universe portions of ST09?

It's lawyers. Who can possibly understand how they think? Just bullshit legalese. Nothing to do with common sense or any kind of practical value.

 

[Christopher]

Query: Why das't won't the FLs let the Litverse mention at least the Prime universe portions of ST09?

I don't know what "FLs" are, but Pocket doesn't currently have the license to use elements from the Bad Robot movies, at least not overtly (some references have been snuck in here and there). Licenses aren't about what fictional continuity something happened in, they're about what real-world production something appeared in. For instance, Marvel's post-TMP comic had the license to use elements from TMP but not from TOS, even though they were in the same reality (and, again, they managed to sneak in a lot of TOS nods anyway).

 

[The Wormhole]

I've been wondering btw, does the STO book count as part of the novelverse

Most certainly not. The STO book even refers to the novelverse as a separate timeline.

 

[ryan123450]

Unfortunately, they're not allowed to do that.

Oh, how I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. The FL's (Fucking Lawyers) literally will not let the litverse deal with the destruction of Romulus or anything derived from that, because that event happened in an Abrams film, and that's off limits to all novel writers.

And if you're wondering how the litverse is ever supposed to mention Romulus, or any Romulan for that matter, WITHOUT mentioning the fact that Romulus is now a giant cloud of space dust...you're in the same boat as the rest of us. God, you gotta love the Fucking Lawyers, don't ya?

(yes, yes, yes, I am VERY much aware that novel writers don't have to hit 2387 for awhile now and can still tell stories set before that time. But they can't keep that up forever. Sooner or later they will have to move on past that date. Hopefully by that time, the Fucking Lawyers will have reconsidered their stance.)

Best post on the board for the day.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't know what "FLs" are

You should.

 

[Idran]

Oh, how I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. The FL's (Fucking Lawyers) literally will not let the litverse deal with the destruction of Romulus or anything derived from that, because that event happened in an Abrams film, and that's off limits to all novel writers.

I've said this about three times now, Laser Beam. Lawyers do not decide what can be done. They take what the executives want to do, and figure out how to implement it.

This is not the fault of the lawyers. This is Bad Robot and CBS.

Blaming lawyers for this is like buying a new house, finding out that the original owners didn't actually own it in the first place and so neither do you, and saying that it's the fault of the realtor. The lawyers are middlemen that follow the direction of the people that hire them. They do not make decisions. In fact, they outright are not allowed to go against what their employer requests, because unless what their employer requests is literally illegal, that could get them disbarred.

 

[Extrocomp]

I don't know what "FLs" are, but Pocket doesn't currently have the license to use elements from the Bad Robot movies, at least not overtly (some references have been snuck in here and there).

I assume The Needs of the Many is an exception, since that novel has a detailed discussion about the destruction of Romulus and what Nero did afterwards.

 

[Idran]

I assume The Needs of the Many is an exception, since that novel has a detailed discussion about the destruction of Romulus and what Nero did afterwards.

Yeah; it's an STO book, and STO has full permission to reference Kelvinverse events. Different licensing agreement.

 

[Vnix]

Unfortunately, they're not allowed to do that.

Oh, how I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. The FL's (Fucking Lawyers) literally will not let the litverse deal with the destruction of Romulus or anything derived from that, because that event happened in an Abrams film, and that's off limits to all novel writers.

And if you're wondering how the litverse is ever supposed to mention Romulus, or any Romulan for that matter, WITHOUT mentioning the fact that Romulus is now a giant cloud of space dust...you're in the same boat as the rest of us. God, you gotta love the Fucking Lawyers, don't ya?

(yes, yes, yes, I am VERY much aware that novel writers don't have to hit 2387 for awhile now and can still tell stories set before that time. But they can't keep that up forever. Sooner or later they will have to move on past that date. Hopefully by that time, the Fucking Lawyers will have reconsidered their stance.)

It's lawyers. Who can possibly understand how they think? Just bullshit legalese. Nothing to do with common sense or any kind of practical value.

I know that, by God I do, I'm specialising in Intellectual Property Law and International Commerce Law thank you very much, and as such I also very much resent the "FL" remark O

Now without reading the licence agreements made ánd studying the legal shit in question (as in what laws apply and what case law) I cannot just give my opinion other than state: It is quite hard to determine what is and is not allowed, which is exactly why I posted the question - even if in a roundabout way - in the first place.

From where I'm sitting it is all based around the idea of IP (intellectual property rights). No one can use another's IP without permission. Such permission comes via Licence-agreements and are generally not a carte blanche but limit what can and cannot be used, such as in this case 2387 and the Destruction of Romulus. Now IDW does have this right since they have made and do make comics based on this thing, and I suspect CrossCult does too since it produces the translations of both IDW and Pocket. (But with that being translations, there are even more difficult loopholes and problems. ALso considering that German IP laws must be taken into account even more than with just the LitVerse, which is also why legally the Prometheus Books are such a wonder.)

IP laws however are very easy with regards to contractability - basically everything is contractable the parties invlved just need to agree - which does mean that it should be entirely possible to rectify this problem, but then comes the sides which I know but the basics of, the problems of supply and demand. Now one of the options would be to limit the LitVerse to the Prime universe and its own spinnoffs and forbid entirally any connection to JJtrek. This would mean Spock having been lost in teh Jellyfish would be part, but not where he ended up. Also, no other ships moving to and fro without special permission.

This would mean though, that the books will become more expensive simply because tehre are even more licencing agreements to be paid.

 

[Idran]

Could you back up what I said to Laser Beam earlier, by the way, @Vnix ? That, unless I'm wrong (which if I am, I'd be glad to be corrected), speaking in the most general terms a corporate lawyer in most any branch of law has essentially one job: when told that the company wants to do X, to find the most effective legal way to achieve X or, if there is none, to inform the company of that fact? Maybe coming from a law student it'll better sink in.

 

[Vnix]

@Idran @Mr. Laser Beam It is indeed so that as a corporate lawyer one needs to find a way to legally secure the interests of the company one works for. Law in the end is all about defining a goal and then find ways to work towards that goal. If I for example were a CBS lawyer and need to define where and when the rights of Paramount Pictures with regards to Star Trek ends, I would use the Destruction of Romulus and since that happened in the year 2387 based on the backstory and all, which is licensed CBS material, I would use that as a way to block everything hitting the post dec 31st 2386 date. Now a lot does depend on the different agreements between the licencees, the licensors and even CBS and Paramount.

 

[Idran]

@Idran @Mr. Laser Beam It is indeed so that as a corporate lawyer one needs to find a way to legally secure the interests of the company one works for. Law in the end is all about defining a goal and then find ways to work towards that goal. If I for example were a CBS lawyer and need to define where and when the rights of Paramount Pictures with regards to Star Trek ends, I would use the Destruction of Romulus and since that happened in the year 2387 based on the backstory and all, which is licensed CBS material, I would use that as a way to block everything hitting the post dec 31st 2386 date. Now a lot does depend on the different agreements between the licencees, the licensors and even CBS and Paramount.

And so if he doesn't like it, the people he should be mad at are the executives that decided where they wanted to set the limits of their licensing agreements rather than the lawyers that implemented those desires?

 

[Vnix]

And so if he doesn't like it, the people he should be mad at are the executives that decided where they wanted to set the limits of their licensing agreements rather than the lawyers that implemented those desires?

Indeed. Now I do understand his distaste for what is being done, for I utterly feel the same way, but I also understand why these things happen.

I mean it is horrible to find that something you worked so hard for is now being pirated and used to earn money with on which you lose out. IP laws are all about trying to stimulate creative processes by securing the profits of those processes for the creators (or most often those who have got the rights to something, since that is not always the same person(companies are also persons from a legal point of view))

 

[Idran]

It wouldn't be so bad if we just had a reason why Bad Robot is being so obtuse about not allowing any Kelvin material to make it into the litverse. So far they have refused to explain themselves, and I believe that we are entitled to know why. We are the customers, after all.

I...half agree with that? I'd love to have a reason, but I don't know that I'd say we're entitled to one. I mean, it is their right to conduct their business however they see fit (within reason, of course; ethical concerns and staying within the law and etc.). I don't even know that I'd say there's any real such thing as a long-term company/customer relationship, just a series of individual exchanges of money and goods. This might end up creating the illusion of a relationship, and the company might encourage that because it makes us more likely to buy more things in the future, but it's not any real connection.

We're only really entitled to the specific things we give money for. If we get those things, then it's done, and if we don't, we can act to either get our money back or get what it is we were supposed to get.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I assume that the current licensing agreement can, at the very least, be renegotiated? Meaning, the litverse might one day be allowed to mention Bad Robot's works, even if they can't do so now.

Especially since ST4 will apparently be the final Kelvinverse film.

 

[Idran]

I assume that the current licensing agreement can, at the very least, be renegotiated? Meaning, the litverse might one day be allowed to mention Bad Robot's works, even if they can't do so now.

Especially since ST4 will apparently be the final Kelvinverse film.

Oh, yeah; like Vnix said (maybe in a different thread? I've lost track ), all they need is motivation to negotiate a new one.

And it will be? Oh, aw; I hadn't heard that. That's kind of a shame.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And it will be? Oh, aw; I hadn't heard that. That's kind of a shame.

AFAIK, the actors are only contracted for one more, and I haven't heard any indication of future Kelvin films. If there are any more Trek films after ST4, they will probably be another reboot (or possibly Prime, if DSC is enough of a hit).

As for the current state of affairs: The main problem is what to do about Romulus. As it stands, once the litverse reaches 2387 - as it eventually must - Romulus will become totally off limits. They won't be able to mention the planet at all. This isn't something they can just gloss over...if not for that, Bad Robot's attitude would be far less of a problem.