Plot hole city: Part II!

[William Wallace]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

 

[F. King Daniel]

1. Chekov yells "compensating for gravitational pull!" just before they materialize. It's wasn't quiet.

2. Same reason the old Enterprise kept surviving despite Scotty and Spock's repeated predictions of certain doom.

3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.

4. He explains his reasoning at the end.

5. Exactly where where they were in every other non-Voyager/Enterprise time travel episode or movie.

 

[Pauln6]

3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.

That's not quite true any more. Now that transporters can beam things to a light year's distance a ship at the edge of sensor range can beam a boarding party across or beam explosive devices to attack you long before you know who they are or whether they are hostile. The genie is out of the bottle.

 

[Trekker4747]

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.

 

[F. King Daniel]

3. You assume he immediately knew Nero was hostile. If Trek ships start running away the minute there's a blip at the extreme edge of sensor range, not much is ever gonna happen.

That's not quite true any more. Now that transporters can beam things to a light year's distance a ship at the edge of sensor range can beam a boarding party across or beam explosive devices to attack you long before you know who they are or whether they are hostile. The genie is out of the bottle.

"Now"? It's been the case since TNG's "Bloodlines". Or far earlier if one counts TOS aliens-of-the-week. The genie came out, nobody used it. The Dominion had the same ability too, but they never used it offensively, either.

 

[Pauln6]

That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.

With post 9/11 terrorism on the agenda it's possible to argue that use of such tactics would depend on the species. However, even the 'honourable' Klingons, who enjoy a fair fight have been seen using subterfuge and deception to gain an advantage in battle to even the odds where they are outmatched.

 

[BK613]

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.

It is something that has been implicit since the first transport was depicted on screen. IOW, a person beaming down to a planet has their orbital velocity reduced to the surface velocity and vice versa.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.

In that case, why didn't the Federation drop Genesis bombs on the Borg and make cute little cubed planets?

And even so, we've seen the technology in the hands of the Federation and the Ferengi. Not the Romulans.

 

[Pauln6]

That's true, although some aliens of the week with such an ability were not hostile, what you say is very true of the Dominion. If hand phasers can be transported fully charged then explosive devices can be too. Whether writers 'forgot' to use it in previous stories it's still relevant here.

In that case, why didn't the Federation drop Genesis bombs on the Borg and make cute little cubed planets?

And even so, we've seen the technology in the hands of the Federation and the Ferengi. Not the Romulans.

Genesis devices are unstable and have a massive area of effect. Plus, if an active device could be transported Kirk would have done so in TWok to give them more distance. It's clear from TWok that a remote control device would not work (tongue in cheek here).

I can imagine the Ferengi beaming across biological weapons to incapacitate but not necessarily explosives - one assumes that there is more profit in 'salvaging' an intact ship. Plus couldn't they beam through shields for a while? Even better!

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Cool story, Bro.

 

[number6]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

Explained in the film

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

Crewmember was expressing a concern, not a fact.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

Nero went after the JF with all power available once Romulus was destroyed, then they both got sucked into the black hole. Not too difficult to figure out if you watched the film.

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

Explained in the film.

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Where were they during any of the other time traveling shows in the franchise?

Do you even know what a plothole is? It didn't seem so from the last thread.

 

[Gojira]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Just a question of curiosity. With all of these plot holes you see are you able to come up with plausible explanations on your own for any of these?

It just takes a little creative thinking to explain these plot holes.

 

[Broccoli]

*sigh*

 

[6079SmithW]

All of these arguments have happened before and all of these arguments will happen again.

God lead the survivors from the wasteland of the previous thread across the forum to their new thread, where they may find rebirth and the ability to break the cycle of flaming, trolling, and general unpleasantness. Will it happen again?

for what its worth:

1. Transporters can apparently reduce the momentum of a falling target so that they survive materialization on the pad.

2. The black hole was still in the process of forming when Spock was on Vulcan. The Enterprise needed to leave before it was fully formed, which they did. In fact, they left just as it fully engulfed the planet.

3. Spock needed to deploy the Red Matter in front of the shock wave so assuming that "fastest ship" means fastest at impulse he needed to slow down and position the Jellyfish for the correct deployment position.

4. Spock Prime didn't want to contaminate the timeline or create a paradox. He later changed his mind and met nuSpock as he figured the timeline had been irrevocably altered anyway. Spock Prime had known Jim Kirk for most his life and knew that he'd get the job done. He makes no distinction between "Kirk prime" and "nuKirk".

5. The timecops don't show up because Abrams-verse exists as a separate "sovereign" entity just like the Mirror universe. The 29th century Abrams-verse timecops wouldn't allow the 29th century Prime timecops to interfere with their timeline.

 

[MacLeod]

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.

It is something that has been implicit since the first transport was depicted on screen. IOW, a person beaming down to a planet has their orbital velocity reduced to the surface velocity and vice versa.

Well the best place to orbit a planet would be in geo-stationary orbit, any higher or lower at the ship could be in the wrong place for an emergency beam out. So there would be no difference in speed.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I still stand my belief that someone with a username referencing the most historically inaccurate historical epic of all time has no business solely nitpicking Star Trek.

 

[sojourner]

As someone once said, "A wizard did it".

 

[Mr Silver]

Because the last one was so much fun!

The last one was closed because it provoked heated arguments and trolling/flaming from users. How long do you think this thread will continue to be "fun"?

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

Because the transporter did stop their momentum. They materialised a couple of feet above the pad, but they didn't die because the speed and distance was greatly reduced by transport.

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

The ship was in danger, but the minimum safe distance was probably well within transporter range.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

Presumably because he was in range of Romulus.

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

A snow monster would have provided a challenge to anyone who didn't have access to fire. The reason Spock thinks that Kirk should be in command is because he's Kirk. He has that unique ability to solve complex problems and adapt to variable situations as a commander.

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?

Alternate universe, who says that the temporal agents even exist in this one? Besides, the Nero and Spock stuff could have been considered a normal part of that universe's timeline.

 

[BK613]

Their fall was canceled out during transport. The falls only from the beam-in point to the floor, otherwise known as two feet.

It is something that has been implicit since the first transport was depicted on screen. IOW, a person beaming down to a planet has their orbital velocity reduced to the surface velocity and vice versa.

Well the best place to orbit a planet would be in geo-stationary orbit, any higher or lower at the ship could be in the wrong place for an emergency beam out. So there would be no difference in speed.

Nope. The circumference of the stationary orbit is bigger than the circumference of the surface and therefore, a bigger arc is swept out for a given time period. Which means a greater velocity for the object in orbit.
For example, the orbital velocity of geostat orbit is about 11,000 Km/hr whereas the tangent velocity is only 1470 Km/hr at the Earth's equator (and less as you move toward the poles.) A similar situation would be true for any planet.

Then there are pesky episodes like The Galileo 7, where the shuttlecraft is accelerating to its death and the Enterprise is moving away from the planetoid as well. Yet the transport happens without a hitch.
Like I said, an implicit feature of the transporter from the beginning. And not a "plot hole."

 

[Kemaiku]

Because the last one was so much fun!

1) When Kirk and Sulu fall off the drilling platform, and Chekov beams them back to the ship as they're falling ("I Can do zat!"), how do they survive the fall? Obviously the transporter doesn't "cancel" their momentum, because they're still falling as soon as they materialize. So shouldn't they die as soon as they smash into transporter room floor?

2) When the black hole is about to destroy Vulcan, an officer on the Enterprise says "We won't reach minimum safe distance if we don't leave immediately." Yet somehow, there's plenty of time for nuSpock to beam down and evacuate the high council (which takes at least several minutes), and the Enterprise still gets away without any problem.

3) How did Nero intercept Spock Prime's Jellyfish, before they both got sucked into the black hole? Wasn't the Jellyfish the "fastest ship" available at the time? Why would it have any trouble at all outrunning a giant mining vessel?

4) Why doesn't Spock Prime travel with Kirk back to the Enterprise? Wouldn't that make battling Nero just a little bit easier if there were 2 Spocks instead of one, one of whom has access to futuristic knowledge and technolgy? And why does Spock think that Kirk commanding the Enterprise is the best way to beat Nero? Kirk couldn't even handle a snow monster by himself, what in God's name makes Spock think he's a match for Nero and his Death Star?

5) During all this time travelling and alteration of history, where are Braxton and the rest of those dudes from Voyager who are supposed to protect the timeline from things like this? Did they go on vacation?