Young Han Solo film drops directors Phil Lord and Chris Miller

[JD]

Maybe, and Maybe Not. There were other factors that came into play in the making of the original Star Wars movies. Again, those actors of color may have not been available. May have not been able to take a pay cut, and there wasn't a diversity quota back then like there is now.

I find it a little hard to believe there were no actors of color who were willing to work in the movies. I'm honestly not accusing the people who made the original trilogy of being purposefully racist, but that doesn't change the lack of diversity in them.

It was and is still a racist town there in Hollywood.regardless of the Progressive messages they try to spout. Hypocrisy runs rampant on Rodeo Drive, and in Burbank and the 90210 zip codes.

That's true of pretty much everywhere.

"pretty damn white movies" if you think that is bad, you should check out all the Bollywood flicks, the Japanese movies, and other countries and their exclusions of races in them. Pretty damn white seems like a statement that says, I don't like seeing white people in a movie.

OK, first of all, there is a big difference in the racial makeup of the modern US and countries like Japan or India, so there is a reason they look the way they do. I don't have a problem seeing white people in movies, I just like seeing more than white people in movies.

I wonder how BET movies would be perceived from that POV...why the separation? shouldn't there be an all inclusionary vision, instead of separating ones self?

Things like this are made for a specific audience, and even most of them still have white people in them in supporting roles.

JD it's really really not offensive if you are not white or are white and hate yourself as a race. I find it offensive.

I'm white, and I don't hate my race, I just don't lost my shit every time a a group of non-white people are heroic and a group white people are bad guys.

What they are basically telling you in the movie is that all white people are rich, racist, and evil imperialists.. with a few exceptions.
that direction wasn't present in the original trilogy, as you have said it was a pretty damn white movie, so the dichotomy between minorities in the rebel alliance and the empire weren't there. but to remake the series with minorities in the position of oppression by an all white empire remnant, is blatant and offensive and a stereotype of white people in favor of pushing an agenda.

No, they really, really, really, really, really aren't.

I agree, diverse heroes and action in SCIFI is great!

Sure as hell doesn't sound like you agree to me.

I don't think that stuff hasn't impacted the movies, when you have the movie itself showing you twice now, that only white people are in the empire remnant, sorry first order.. and the few whites in the resistance are with minorities. it feels very political, and if not seen, then only those who agree with that POV are unaffected. Hell, even the writers made tweets saying as much.. and that prompted the Disney CEO to have to come out and say it wasn't so after the damage had been done.

I don't see the problem.

That EU excuse is always trudged out when the criticism flies about their writing and direction they took the movies. Yea, would have been nice to see the Mandalorians invading the galaxy again? sure.. If the writers in Hollywood had any vision these days, they could have written a new series that still left the EU intact, without mentioning events in it, and why even go back to the Skywalkers? George Lucas even said in an interview in 2005, if an episode 7 was to take place, he didn't see it needing to be dealing with those characters, and or trying to restore democracy to the galaxy. There were so many ways to go, but corporate interests wanted the empire to milk again, and gave us a new rehash series. It's not original. neither was Rogue One.

Of course there were tons of directions they could have gone in, but I don't see anything wrong with the direction they chose.

With this Han movie.. there may be a way to finally break that trend, since it's a one off. But again, Han's death kinda makes it bitter sweet, knowing the whole time I watch that movie, his emo freakazoid son is going to kill him (as an Obiwan stand in) and that kinda sucks.

There are plenty of movies about both real and fictional characters who were killed in ways we might not like, and it doesn't seem to bother most people.

Rampant Racism? Are you kidding me??This isn't the Jim Crowe South.. (democrat By the way)

Are you seriously that fucking oblivious?

...that statement right there assumes everyone thinks the way you do about the President. For a Racist country that voted for Barack Obama twice!

I never said they would, and I have a feeling it was a very different group of people who got the current president elected, than the people who got Obama elected.

I would think that was all put to rest. It couldn't be the liberal Socialistic policies that had anything to do with Trump's election?? No.. racism is the best excuse, cause it's hard to defend.. but only, that's not the reason.. and proof is subjective to the website propaganda on both sides..

Of course it wasn't the only thing that got him elected, but with the shit Trump spewed, it seems hard for me to believe it didn't play some role.

I'm neither, but I am not oblivious to the arguments on both sides.. I see the BS being spewed by both POVs and I find it tiresome.

Of course, both sides have their problems, but one side definitely had a lot more that are pretty much impossible for me to overlook.

which was my main complaint.. why make the First Order all White set against Minorities? Even the writers admitted that? It was a let down for someone trying to escape that crap.. it's just crap.. it's toxic.

Oh well, if don't like then just find something else to watch.

People need to talk to one another instead of going to their respective corners and attacking one another.

if only it was that easy.

diversity of people is wonderful. Diversity of thought seems to be a bad thing.. that is sad.. I am not into group think. I am not a Star Trek Borg.. Left or Right..

You can think whatever you want, but if I don't like what you think, then I have to right to tell you that.

I agree there. I would like to see more Asians in space stories. I used to watch allot of Kung Fu, and Bruce Lee. I always loved Godzilla. But there wasn't much for scifi (American produced) that led to more. George Takei is a fav of mine, and so too was Levar Burton. I remember his reading rainbow stuff shown at my elementary school. to see him be the Chief Engineer of the flagship of Starfleet was awesome. It's not the diversity.. it's the lack of it in the First Order. and the lack of aliens in the resistance.. as it stands.. I feel offended.. Disney and Star Wars is saying to me, your white. so your evil, and only women and minorities will lead the way in the future.

I must be seeing things, because I'm seeing quite a few white people here.

That wasn't even the message in the Matrix Trilogy.. minorities save the world, with a few whites.. that was cool. nothing racist there.. I liked that. But the dichotomy in the new series is just offensive. it just feels that way, and I am sorry, you can't shake that feeling. if Episode 8 is like that, and a ripoff of Empire. I have to say I am done. I'm not alone either..

Fine, feel however you want, but when you post this shit I'm not going to ignore it.

If you can't see the blatant imagery, then you're probably agreeing with it.. Sad really because it is there.

Of course I can see it, I'm not bothered by it.

But can we move from this to Ron Howard?? I am interested in seeing what you think now that the directors are gone and he's coming in.

I'm not the one who started this conversation. You can't post this kind of stuff then get upset if people call you out on it.

 

[starsuperion]

I find it a little hard to believe there were no actors of color who were willing to work in the movies. I'm honestly not accusing the people who made the original trilogy of being purposefully racist, but that doesn't change the lack of diversity in them.
.

You're right there was, but again all I am saying is that the context of history should be taken into account. Looking at the late 1970s-early 80s with today's standards is a false assumption when not including the context of the era.

That's true of pretty much everywhere..

Maybe, But Hollywood is a different story, and the executives and people who make those movies, and the actors who sit silently as the Oscars elect only people of White color, and yet spew their Political drivel about inclusiveness and diversity as they accept their Golden trophy are a bit hypocritical (on National TV) so racism can be said to be pretty much anywhere, but I am speaking specifically of Hollywood in the context of this discussion about Star Wars. I don't have issues with the diversity in any movies, if they have a lack or not. My point is and always is if you're going to do it, then don't make it about trashing whites (or any particular group outside of historical context) as a Nazi Racist space species, and expect not to have some people get offended by it's implications. I can see it in a historical context, but in a scifi setting in a series that dealt with that in the EU's books and lore, and then to ignore all that in favor of the politically charged and racially charged direction to which again "Even the writers themselves have already admitted to." Makes my case for me. I'm not making the movies about Race, the writers at Disney said so, and I am saying I find that offensive.

OK, first of all, there is a big difference in the racial makeup of the modern US and countries like Japan or India, so there is a reason they look the way they do. I don't have a problem seeing white people in movies, I just like seeing more than white people in movies.
Things like this are made for a specific audience, and even most of them still have white people in them in supporting roles..

When you place a white person in an All black movie who is the butt of jokes, and racial jokes that are "okay because the person is white" but it is not the other way, it is offensive. We should be respectful of anyone regardless of color. The racial make up of the US during Star Wars a New hope was around 75% white.. today it is around 70% white.. so what are you saying?? would the original star wars movie be making the movie towards their audience demographic?? if anything, there should be more Asians in the movies, and Hispanics as they outnumber black americans. However between Lucas's original trilogy and the Prequels, there have been allot of women and people of color in the movies. back then tho, you had the core crew, all white cast, and an all white empire.. so okay, no real problem there. now it's a flip flop and minority versus evil white supremacist organization, and that isn't what it was supposed to be..

I'm white, and I don't hate my race, I just don't lost my shit every time a a group of non-white people are heroic and a group white people are bad guys...

Neither do I, I wouldn't say making a statement about it is "losing My shit"

No, they really, really, really, really, really aren't...

again "The Writers themselves already said as much!" don't take my word for it. Weitz and His cohort already made that clear.. they made the movies political in their statements, and wrote it that way, as they already came clean in their comments..

Sure as hell doesn't sound like you agree to me.
I don't see the problem.

To each their own Bro, I am not into "group think" I'm not a Borg Drone.

Of course there were tons of directions they could have gone in, but I don't see anything wrong with the direction they chose.

No worries, To each their own Bro, again I am not into "group think" I'm not a Borg Drone. So I disagree.

There are plenty of movies about both real and fictional characters who were killed in ways we might not like, and it doesn't seem to bother most people..

Yea those who want to admit it.. those who are afraid not to because of being judged by reactionary fools looking for the Racist whitey under their beds.. I get it..

Are you seriously that fucking oblivious? I never said they would, and I have a feeling it was a very different group of people who got the current president elected, than the people who got Obama elected. ..

How the Hell can you say that?? What? Did we import a slew of conservative people in who didn't elect Obama?? really?? Maybe Clinton just sucked.. had no message Like "make America Great again" and just wanted to be the next in line because she has a gender that hasn't been in the office yet.. hmmm...where did these "different group" of people come from? space?? LMAO!!

Of course it wasn't the only thing that got him elected, but with the shit Trump spewed, it seems hard for me to believe it didn't play some role.

So what you're implying is the secretly racist Americans who voted for Obama, TWICE, decided that Trump was their guy based on the stuff he says.. (as if he was saying racist stuff anyways) I don't think these secret coded words and Triggers is provable and is a bit paranoid and idiotic if you ask me.. Muslim Ban.. yea, that's religious bias, not racial.. and that is an ideology all it's own. I have read the Quran.. Have you? I read the Bible, and the Apocrapha, and the Torah, and most of their books.. including the Gnostics.. I am not religious.. To each their own..

to me, Religion is a system.. a system of Mental conditioning.. But that's just me. I prefer to remain spiritual.

Of course, both sides have their problems, but one side definitely had a lot more that are pretty much impossible for me to overlook. Oh well, if don't like then just find something else to watch. if only it was that easy. You can think whatever you want, but if I don't like what you think, then I have to right to tell you that...

You do. I have a right to defend my position, you have a right to come back at it. I am not your enemy. I don't have friends who all think the way I do. that would be boring.. Like living in a clone commune or something like that. I prefer diversity of thought and discussion. because defending my position will either strengthen my beliefs, or challenge me to rethink them in favor of a different POV. Again, All I am saying is that I feel like the New Star Wars has become a political statement, which even their writers have pointed out, and with that in the exact mention of the First Order being a white supremacist organization.. and then also they threw in "opposed by brave minorities and women" as if everyone agrees that is acceptable.. I am saying Star Wars was never supposed to be so local/pedestrian in their statements.. it was never supposed to be that way.. if the EU doesn't count, it's impact on the legacy of Star Wars has been diminished, it was what helped bring us the Prequels when Lucas didn't want to.. bad or good, the idea of Human High culture is bigger then just human on human racism.. it's a galactic issue of Specie-ism.. more appropriate for a galactic civilization wouldn't you say??

I must be seeing things, because I'm seeing quite a few white people here.

Fine, feel however you want, but when you post this shit I'm not going to ignore it....

Okay Gooooooood.. I am always up for a debate. And when you post shit in response, I plan to reply.

Of course I can see it, I'm not bothered by it..

Well, then you have have that right. I am not.. I think it cheapens the movies for short term political statements, rather then making it a human versus alien/human resistance dichotomy.. I just think if they didn't go all white people VS minority/female then it would hold up better, be less offensive, and fit as a Galactic story. Their anti-racism, anti-fascism message would still come across, but on a larger scale, and include xenophobia, or humanist supremacy.. in the far future when we do make contact and alliances with alien races, that type of specie-ism could be an issue. it would seem more logical that way to me.. but what ever. Like I said. I don't begrudge your opinion, I just think that the diversity in the new movies was one sided, and offensive as is. I hope that Episode 8 corrects that, because it would be easy to do. (the sector that the FO was in could've been like Sweden or Norway or something. Would be nice to see the FO in an Asian like sector, which all Asian casts, and more aliens as prominent heroes in addition to Poe, Rey, and Fin. (outside the obvious Chewy)

I'm not the one who started this conversation. You can't post this kind of stuff then get upset if people call you out on it.

Fair enough, tho the topic of the thread was about the directors leaving.. this I think is more of us going off on a tangent..

 

[JD]

You're right there was, but again all I am saying is that the context of history should be taken into account. Looking at the late 1970s-early 80s with today's standards is a false assumption when not including the context of the era.

Sure, but there are still movies from this era that were more diverse, so it's not like it was impossible.

Maybe, But Hollywood is a different story, and the executives and people who make those movies, and the actors who sit silently as the Oscars elect only people of White color, and yet spew their Political drivel about inclusiveness and diversity as they accept their Golden trophy are a bit hypocritical (on National TV) so racism can be said to be pretty much anywhere, but I am speaking specifically of Hollywood in the context of this discussion about Star Wars.

It's worth keeping in mind that there are more than one group involved in these different situations, so it's not like all of the same people are doing the casting and giving out the awards.

I don't have issues with the diversity in any movies, if they have a lack or not. My point is and always is if you're going to do it, then don't make it about trashing whites (or any particular group outside of historical context) as a Nazi Racist space species, and expect not to have some people get offended by it's implications. I can see it in a historical context, but in a scifi setting in a series that dealt with that in the EU's books and lore, and then to ignore all that in favor of the politically charged and racially charged direction to which again "Even the writers themselves have already admitted to." Makes my case for me. I'm not making the movies about Race, the writers at Disney said so, and I am saying I find that offensive.

They had one group of bad guys who are white supremecists, that doesn't make them rascist.If I wrote a story or made a movie about a black guy going up against members of the KKK does that automically mean I'm rascist against other white people?

When you place a white person in an All black movie who is the butt of jokes, and racial jokes that are "okay because the person is white" but it is not the other way, it is offensive. We should be respectful of anyone regardless of color.

Are they always the butt of racial jokes? Aren't they sometimes just the friend or boss or something like that?

The racial make up of the US during Star Wars a New hope was around 75% white.. today it is around 70% white.. so what are you saying?? would the original star wars movie be making the movie towards their audience demographic??

The Star Wars movie are geared toward everyone.
i

f anything, there should be more Asians in the movies, and Hispanics as they outnumber black americans.

Sounds good to me.

However between Lucas's original trilogy and the Prequels, there have been allot of women and people of color in the movies. back then tho, you had the core crew, all white cast, and an all white empire.. so okay, no real problem there. now it's a flip flop and minority versus evil white supremacist organization, and that isn't what it was supposed to be..

I think I've already proven that there were white heroes too.

Neither do I, I wouldn't say making a statement about it is "losing My shit"

You sure seem pretty worked up about it.

again "The Writers themselves already said as much!" don't take my word for it. Weitz and His cohort already made that clear.. they made the movies political in their statements, and wrote it that way, as they already came clean in their comments..

All they said was that they made one group of bad guys white supremecists, they never said all white people were evil.

To each their own Bro, I am not into "group think" I'm not a Borg Drone.




No worries, To each their own Bro, again I am not into "group think" I'm not a Borg Drone. So I disagree.

Fine we disagree.

Yea those who want to admit it.. those who are afraid not to because of being judged by reactionary fools looking for the Racist whitey under their beds.. I get it..

I really don't see what this has to do with Han's death.

How the Hell can you say that?? What? Did we import a slew of conservative people in who didn't elect Obama?? really?? Maybe Clinton just sucked.. had no message Like "make America Great again" and just wanted to be the next in line because she has a gender that hasn't been in the office yet.. hmmm...where did these "different group" of people come from? space?? LMAO!!

Setting aside the race thing, their whole approaches and policies were so completely different that I find it hard to believe that there were a lot of people who voted for both of them. Besides one is a Democrat, and one is Republican, so that alone removes a lot of the potential crossover votes.

So what you're implying is the secretly racist Americans who voted for Obama, TWICE, decided that Trump was their guy based on the stuff he says.. (as if he was saying racist stuff anyways) I don't think these secret coded words and Triggers is provable and is a bit paranoid and idiotic if you ask me.. Muslim Ban.. yea, that's religious bias, not racial.. and that is an ideology all it's own.

Riiight, it's not racial, that's why the only countries listed in the initial ban were Middle Eastern, when there are countries in Europe and Asia that have even larger populations of Muslims in them. Hell, Indonesia alone has over 100,000,000 more Muslims in it than Iran.
To be clear when I'm talking about racism, I'm not just talking about in politics or in Hollywood, I'm talking about what the average Black, Hispanic, Asian, or Middle Eastern American puts up with on a daily basis.

I have read the Quran.. Have you? I read the Bible, and the Apocrapha, and the Torah, and most of their books.. including the Gnostics.. I am not religious.. To each their own..

No, but I don't need to have read them to understand this situation.

to me, Religion is a system.. a system of Mental conditioning.. But that's just me. I prefer to remain spiritual.

Ok, good for you.

You do. I have a right to defend my position, you have a right to come back at it. I am not your enemy. I don't have friends who all think the way I do. that would be boring.. Like living in a clone commune or something like that. I prefer diversity of thought and discussion. because defending my position will either strengthen my beliefs, or challenge me to rethink them in favor of a different POV.

Sure, you are allowed to have whatever thoughts you want, but I'm not going to just sit back and ignore stuff I don't agree with or don't like.

Again, All I am saying is that I feel like the New Star Wars has become a political statement, which even their writers have pointed out, and with that in the exact mention of the First Order being a white supremacist organization.. and then also they threw in "opposed by brave minorities and women" as if everyone agrees that is acceptable..

It might have been influenced by politics, but I don't see it as a political statement.

I am saying Star Wars was never supposed to be so local/pedestrian in their statements.. it was never supposed to be that way..

Star Wars is still the same thing it's always been.

if the EU doesn't count, it's impact on the legacy of Star Wars has been diminished, it was what helped bring us the Prequels when Lucas didn't want to

It's legacy is not being diminished, it's still there, and it's still being used.

.. bad or good, the idea of Human High culture is bigger then just human on human racism.. it's a galactic issue of Specie-ism.. more appropriate for a galactic civilization wouldn't you say??

Sure, and the Empire isn't just about human on human rascism, they also discriminate against aliens.

Okay Gooooooood.. I am always up for a debate. And when you post shit in response, I plan to reply.

Fine.

Well, then you have have that right. I am not.. I think it cheapens the movies for short term political statements, rather then making it a human versus alien/human resistance dichotomy.. I just think if they didn't go all white people VS minority/female then it would hold up better, be less offensive, and fit as a Galactic story. Their anti-racism, anti-fascism message would still come across, but on a larger scale, and include xenophobia, or humanist supremacy.. in the far future when we do make contact and alliances with alien races, that type of specie-ism could be an issue. it would seem more logical that way to me.. but what ever. Like I said. I don't begrudge your opinion, I just think that the diversity in the new movies was one sided, and offensive as is.

I disagree.

I hope that Episode 8 corrects that, because it would be easy to do. (the sector that the FO was in could've been like Sweden or Norway or something. Would be nice to see the FO in an Asian like sector, which all Asian casts, and more aliens as prominent heroes in addition to Poe, Rey, and Fin. (outside the obvious Chewy)

Maybe they will.

Fair enough, tho the topic of the thread was about the directors leaving.. this I think is more of us going off on a tangent..

You're the one who started all of this, not me.

 

[Spot261]

My issue is with making the entirety of the Remnant, sorry First Order all white with Minorities portrayed in the position of the hero against the rich, wealthy, space NAZI empire

Kinda hard to do a diverse, all embracing multicultural allegory of Neo nazis....

 

[Tuskin38]

And the First Order are not White Supremacists? Neither was the empire. it never was.

You can find examples of different skin colours in various works.

 

[Reverend]

You'd have to be both blind and in a coma not to pick up on the heavy inspiration taken from the Third Reich for both the Empire and The First Order. Both in terms of design, pallet choices etc, but also the martial, authoritarian monolithic culture on display.

Now in-universe the Imperials may not have been all about a certain colour of humans dominating all the others, but that's rather besides the point. I mean they're already hitting the audience over the head with the other aspects, no need for it to be a 1-to-1 allegory.

 

[Tuskin38]

I wasn't saying they were not evil, I was just saying they were not white supremacists

They're an oppressive brutal regime, no denying that. But the oppresss everyone, it isn't just a singular thing like racism

There is some pro-human sentiment sure, especially in the military but it isn't solid through out the Empire, hell the highest ranking person under Palpatine in the government was an alien. Plus there is Thrawn

Mind you, that was the Empire not the First Order, not sure what their stance on aliens is, probably mostly the same

 

[Reverend]

I wasn't saying they were not evil, I was just saying they were not white supremacists

They're an oppressive brutal regime, no denying that. But the oppresss everyone, it isn't just a singular thing like racism

There is some pro-human sentiment sure, especially in the military but it isn't solid through out the Empire, hell the highest ranking person under Palpatine in the government was an alien. Plus there is Thrawn

Mind you, that was the Empire not the First Order, not sure what their stance on aliens is, probably mostly the same

Well this is where the vital demarcation of text and subtext comes in. Textually, yes, as I already said the Imperials are not literal fair-skinned-human supremacists. Subtextually, yeah, they really *really* are.
The Empire isn't just evil is a general, nebulous sense. They're not moustache twirling, kicking puppies and hiding the remote control evil. It's a very specific brand of fascistic, authoritarian totalitarianism that's drawn straight from the pages of history. Mostly Nazis, but also a just little bit of Imperial Japan too.

To claim otherwise is to be ignorant of both the blindingly obvious and betray a very shallow view of what made that particular regime so reprehensible and yet, successful in it's own horrible way. Don't mistake rhetoric for true intent.

 

[Tuskin38]

and I never said otherwise.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And the First Order are not White Supremacists? Neither was the empire. it never was.

You can find examples of different skin colours in various works.

"White" or "Caucasian" is a fictional ethnic group that is imagined to exist based mainly on the ancient traditions of the racial power structure of colonial America. One can claim to be a member of this supposed "white race" by having ancestors originating from certain European or Asian ethnic groups, having a particular complexion or hair color associated with those groups, or -- as is often the case -- purely by assertion. Removed from the social and cultural background of English-speaking North America, the concept of the "white race" is effectively gibberish and would make very little sense to a group of humans inhabiting a galaxy billions of light years from Europe or Asia or America, in a time period where the context that makes the term "white person" have any meaning at all won't even exist for thousands of years.

That having been said:
The Empire explicitly strives for two things: order and unity. They deliberately exclude non-humans from the officers corps and (for the most part) from the pilot corps. They are suspicious of people with exotic backgrounds or beliefs and they see most forms of eccentricity as possible evidence of subversiveness. In the novels -- new canon especially -- it's implied that this is one of the things that makes Admiral Thrawn so alarming: he's a radical departure from what EVERYONE thinks is the typical imperial officer, but he gets away with it anyway, because he is THAT DAMN GOOD.

Even Rae Sloan in two different novels laments about the Empire's pursuit of conformity and order through the crushing of diversity. Evidently their tolerance for morphological differences among humans is wider than that of their Earthbound counterparts, but that's to be expected in a galaxy where NEAR humans like the Togrunta or theTwi'leks are relatively common.