Yet Another Doomsday Machine Thread

[CorporalCaptain]

This has been my favorite episode for a long time. It hits all the right notes. Love the music. Original VFX all the way.

I'm not seeing a problem with "Yet Another 'Doomsday Machine' Thread."

In my head-canon, the antimatter deactivation and/or subspace interference render(s) photon torpedoes inoperable.

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Okay - on the shape of the DDM - if it's made out of pretty much solid neutronium (is there such a thing?!?) there would have to be some very strong force-fields keeping it from collapsing.

Two part reply to this.

1. There is a Wikipedia article on neutronium [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutronium]. The usual caveats apply: this is for reference only as a jumping off point, I do not stand by the contents of the article, etc. The caveats are especially relevant, because not much is known about the real-world properties of neutronium, as it has never been studied.

That said, the article distinguishes neutronium from degenerate neutronium in neutron stars. Regular (non-degenerate) neutronium is theorized not to solidify at ordinary pressures, not to interact electrostatically with regular matter (so, e.g. to be difficult to hold in a container), and to have properties similar to the noble gasses.

In other words, the material that the planet killer is made of need not be exactly the same material that neutron stars are composed of.

2. In the Star Trek universe, there are elements not on our periodic chart, such as dilithium and dikironium. It's wide open that the planet killer neutronium might be some science fiction-y neutron crystal with one or more of these exotic elements as dopants to allow the neutrons collective to solidify and crystalize in a sub-degenerate and non-self-gravitating state with a long half-life; saying that its hull is pure neutronium might simply mean that the crystal is perfect or nearly enough.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

This has been my favorite episode for a long time. It hits all the right notes. Love the music. Original VFX all the way.

I'm not seeing a problem with "Yet Another 'Doomsday Machine' Thread."

In my head-canon, the antimatter deactivation and/or subspace interference render(s) photon torpedoes inoperable.

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Two part reply to this.

1. There is a Wikipedia article on neutronium [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutronium]. The usual caveats apply: this is for reference only as a jumping off point, I do not stand by the contents of the article, etc. The caveats are especially relevant, because not much is known about the real-world properties of neutronium, as it has never been studied.

That said, the article distinguishes neutronium from degenerate neutronium in neutron stars. Regular (non-degenerate) neutronium is theorized not to solidify at ordinary pressures, not to interact electrostatically with regular matter (so, e.g. to be difficult to hold in a container), and to have properties similar to the noble gasses.

In other words, the material that the planet killer is made of need not be exactly the same material that neutron stars are composed of.

2. In the Star Trek universe, there are elements not on our periodic chart, such as dilithium and dikironium. It's wide open that the planet killer neutronium might be some science fiction-y neutron crystal with one or more of these exotic elements as dopants to allow the neutrons collective to solidify and crystalize in a sub-degenerate and non-self-gravitating state with a long half-life; saying that its hull is pure neutronium might simply mean that the crystal is perfect or nearly enough.

Given that kind of information, another way out is to say that real (literal) neutronium is so impractical that Neutronium™ became the commercial brand name for a phaser-resistant metal alloy or ceramic material.

And producing this stuff is so expensive that the Doomsday Machine is the only large thing we've ever seen that was made of it. The aliens in another galaxy just happened upon the same formula, and Spock called it by its common name in the Alpha Quadrant.

 

[jackoverfull]

About the photon torpedoes vs warp core issue, I have to point out that when a ship explodes all the matter and antimatter in each photon torpedo it carries will be mixed as well, making for a much bigger explosion!

 

[Commishsleer]

I agree with everyone. great script, great acting, great guest because even though he's an ass you feel for him.
McCoys "So are you.......sir"
There's virtually nothing I would change regarding the script, no cuts. No unnecessary scenes.
I was wondering was this one of the episodes where Shatner stole some of Doohan's lines so he could have more lines than Nimoy. Or is that a myth?
The only think I really dislike about this episode is the machine itself. Its really ugly, stupid looking. It looks so bad. I'd say even behind the Gorn, the Mugato - sort of on the same tier and the Apple monster.
I like the (is it new?) intro where they come across the Constellation battle-damaged. A twin to the Enterprise.
I think we come in thinking what could defeat a big powerful Starship like that but confident that they don't have our team led by Captain Kirk in command. Then lo and behold we lose contact with Kirk and Decker takes over and its on. We might lose!

I've mentioned this before in one of the previous Doomsday machine threads that I find it hard to believe that they'd have a regulation that Decker could take over the Enterprise by basically abandoning Kirk. But apparently its a rule in the current navy so I'm obviously wrong but it still sounds stupid to me. I mean Decker makes a bad command decision and loses all his crew and he's allowed to take over another ship. Surely there'd be some automatic court martial in place that would stop him doing that without an investigation.

 

[Timo]

Heh, dunno about that. The new guy with the new ship doesn't know yet which decisions are wrong ones. The old guy without a ship does. So by all means let him try again.

I'm still fond of the theory that Decker had the right idea all along: he stranded his crew on a doomed planet solely because he intended to ram the monster with the starship, losing but his own life in the process. When that failed (because the monster fired again and the Constellation no longer could move), he went mad. But then he recovered, and tried something completely different with the fresh starship, namely firing safely from the side. Didn't work, so he went back to his original method, cuing in Kirk, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ssosmcin]

The Jerry Catron who died in 1972 was a different guy. Someone wrote into the fact check blog about this a few years ago — we were able to confirm this using the identifying information for Catron on the episode’s cast sheet (now at UCLA) and the information on the death certificate of the other Jerry Catron from 1972.

Then I absolutely and happily stand corrected. Thanks @Harvey as always.

 

[Maurice]

If you look at the full side view of the original Planet Killer it's clearly designed to evoke a whale. The turned up end tip is like a fluke seen side-on. And Spinrad's script indicates it should have a "funnel" mouth, albeit he also calls a for a "body" behind it.

I love the texture of the thing. No one who does CGI models of it ever tries to mimick that and the odd colors along the creases in the surface texture.

By the way, I highly recommend the fan made New Voyages episode In Harm’s Way, which is a follow-up of sorts and quite enjoyable.

I wouldn't.

 

[M'Sharak]

Died young? Are we talking about the same guy?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0146306/

He died at 85 - that's a good run.

I had read that he died in a motorcycle accident in the early 70s

https://therealnerdherd.wordpress.com/2017/02/22/2-21-happy-birthday-to-the-late-jerry-catron/

It was discussed in his “death” thread.

also note that there isn’t a single acting credit for him after the 70’s date of his death.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/securitys-finest-jerry-catron.287984/

The Jerry Catron who died in 1972 was a different guy. Someone wrote into the fact check blog about this a few years ago — we were able to confirm this using the identifying information for Catron on the episode’s cast sheet (now at UCLA) and the information on the death certificate of the other Jerry Catron from 1972.

The IMDB bio information may be a bit of a mixture, looks like. The date of death given there is a match for the one found in the Legacy.com obit and both give "Jack" as a nickname. However, IMDB has him born as Jerry Eugene Catron and cites no credits of any kind past 1970, while the Legacy.com page has it as Jerry Aldridge Catron and has him doing stunts and/or second-unit directing for Ben-Hur, Vertigo, Lawrence of Arabia and other films, plus work on "over 35" documentaries for National Geographic.

 

[MGagen]

Wonderful summation of the episode's strengths. It is also one of my favorite episodes. Windom is the best guest star they ever had, except maybe for William Marshall or Ricardo Montalban.

I LOVE Scotty's summary of how to detonate the Constellation. Sober, no-nonsense, with a dash of grave concern for Kirk. Quite an acting feat, given Doohan's opinion of Shatner. Also, Windom assuming command. You believe the man had spent years in the center seat of just such a vessel. Masterful.

I have to agree that the original effects were always a little disappointing. I welcomed the opening out of the episode when CBS remastered it; but is was a crying shame they did it so early in the project. It suffers most of all from the complete lack of know-how in lighting 3D models. The charm of the original DM was the odd, crystalline effect of its surface -- which was achieved in large part with paint and creative lighting. The remastered DM looked almost untextured. And the lighting was completely flat. Everything was neutral RGB gray. Blech!

 

[Maurice]

Actors are trained to play parts. It's unsurprising that Doohan could be professional. That's. The. Job. And this is assuming he actually had a grudge against Shatner that far back. He's sure goofing around with him in some of the first and second season bloopers.

 

[Court_Vince]

One of my favorites as well, probably my favorite episode in all of TOS. William's acting here is brilliant he really makes you feel the heartbreak and pain as tells what happened to his crew. I love the scenes between Decker, Spock and McCoy the tension as they fight and debate his command decisions is great, and the lines
DECKER: You wouldn't dare. You're bluffing.
SPOCK: Vulcans never bluff.
DECKER: No. No, I don't suppose that they do. Very well, Mister Spock. The Bridge is yours.
Pure greatness

 

[johnnybear]

It really is the definitive episode of season two for me! That music and the tension at the end with the Doomsday Machine and the Constellation and if Kirk doesn't beam off in time is pure class!
JB

 

[Herbert]

7) The effects. Sue me, I love the oringal FX. The AMT model effects have been such a part of my life for so long, no new “improvements” work for me. The original design of the Planet Killer is understated and terrifying. My friends have called it a cannoli, a space cornucopia, a Deadly Bugle snack and the Space Poop. I don’t care. For me, it’s perfect.

I couldn't agree more about the effects. I don't think the "enhanced" effects used in this episode and on TOS in general enhance the episodes in any measurable way.

I do find it a bit odd that Decker is able to win the fight with the security officer. Of course, he has to win in order to advance the episode but a much younger, more rested, and presumably more fit guy should beat Decker, given everything he's been through.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Decker sucker punched him twice. First with the fake cough and then by pretending to be winded before nailing him in the gut. Even the most fit guy can be taken down by a dirty fighter.

At least that’s what I tell myself.

 

[M'Sharak]

Decker sucker punched him twice. First with the fake cough and then by pretending to be winded before nailing him in the gut. Even the most fit guy can be taken down by a dirty fighter.

At least that’s what I tell myself.

"Old age and treachery win out over youth and skill."

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Decker sucker punched him twice. First with the fake cough and then by pretending to be winded before nailing him in the gut. Even the most fit guy can be taken down by a dirty fighter.

That alone can explain the whole thing. But there is also the fact that a guard was fighting a commodore. Decker was fighting to win, while the guard was fighting mostly in self defense, with an inhibition against injuring a very senior officer— an old man with a lot of braid on his sleeve.

 

[Noname Given]

I couldn't agree more about the effects. I don't think the "enhanced" effects used in this episode and on TOS in general enhance the episodes in any measurable way.

I do find it a bit odd that Decker is able to win the fight with the security officer. Of course, he has to win in order to advance the episode but a much younger, more rested, and presumably more fit guy should beat the Decker, given everything he's been through.

It's an old military trope that was played out here (as well as in TOS season 2 - 'The Omega Glory" Where Captain Tracy defeats Captain Kirk in hand to hand); namely that the older/combat wiser veteran we'll always defeat the younger soldier because of his experience in fighting . As stated by a few above, Decker sucker punched the guy, because in real combat there are no rules.

And as for the music and TOS season 2 The Doomsday Machine I agree that the episode was scored more like a feature film than a TV episode. I always found it interesting that in the episode each major aspect has its own particular music cue/theme. Every time you see the Doomsday Machine itself, It has its own theme; And the same goes for the USS Enterprise and even the USS Constitution when Kirk and Scotty are flying at about.

 

[M'Sharak]

And as for the music and TOS season 2 The Doomsday Machine I agree that the episode was scored more like a feature film than a TV episode. I always found it interesting that in the episode each major aspect has its own particular music cue/theme. Every time you see the Doomsday Machine itself, It has its own theme; And the same goes for the USS Enterprise and even the USS Constitution when Kirk and Scotty are flying at about.

The practice of using a leitmotif to represent each character and major story aspect is frequently found in music for the original television series and the subsequent shows, and is not uncommon in film and television music generally. You're right in observing that this was one of the better examples in Trek of the practice being applied rigorously throughout the story.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

And as for the music and TOS season 2 The Doomsday Machine I agree that the episode was scored more like a feature film than a TV episode. I always found it interesting that in the episode each major aspect has its own particular music cue/theme. Every time you see the Doomsday Machine itself, It has its own theme; And the same goes for the USS Enterprise and even the USS Constitution when Kirk and Scotty are flying at about.

Yes! It's a superb example of the leitmotif style in film scoring. Even Sulu's security board has a motif of its own when Decker steals a shuttlecraft. Boy, it's a great score. It tells the whole story.

 

[UnknownSample]

I prefer the rough original Bugle... This is probably the biggest thing these aliens ever built, and building on that scale isn't going to make it look sleek and machined as if it came from a factory (though that may be what Spinrad had in mind). No, you'd be working with BIG materials like asteroids, blasting bits away to shape this. The remastered one looks silly to me. The rough cone gives it scale.
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The darting around movements of the ships attacking the cone look silly too. I love the shots of planets with Remastered, but the space scenes don't work out as well.