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Yesterday's Enterprise - Why not Evacuate Enterprise-C?

Lets see one of interesting time travel paradoxes here, maybe...?

Enterprise-C went back in time, so no war happened between Federation and Klingons. So, Tasha shouldn't even "have existed" in the alternate timeline because Ent-C prevented it happening at all. However, she ended up producing offspring in the "correct" timeline... what...
 
^ I think the divergent timeline probably only exists for 20 or so years; created by the anomaly at Narendra III, and collapsing once the time loop is complete. The Enterprise-C always falls into it prior to destruction, gets fixed up a bit by the D's crew, is sent back with AlternateTasha riding shotgun, and surges back to life earning both respect and honor in the eyes of the Klingons. The timeline we all know and love continues normally, with baby Sela growing up to be a thorn in our heroes' side.

The excellent Department of Temporal Investigations books by @Christopher L Bennett are instructive in such matters as collapsing/absorbing timelines, and what happens to people and events when that occurs.
 
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^ I believe it was in 'Parallels', Data says there's a theory that everything that could happen, do happen... who knows.

If a new universe / timeline is born everytime something happens, there isn't enough numbers in the universe to count them. :)
 
It's kind of amazing that the shenanigans in STIV didn't blow the timeline out of the water. So to speak. A phaser left behind. The formula for transparent aluminum given to some guy who may or may not have been the original inventor. A Klingon bird of prey sighting. A kidney regrown. Many, many interactions, including a witnessed Vulcan neck pinch. Two whales no longer excisting in that time who might or might not have continued to live in that time, but for sure existed in it. And that's just the obvious stuff--a careless word, a pizza dinner delayed for someone else who decided to leave the restaurant and get Chinese food, but instead was struck by a truck and killed and no longer had three children, one of whom was a direct ancestor of Richard Daystromm; maybe that guy Kirk double-dumbassed was on the edge of insanity and Kirk's curse sent him over and he killed 10, including a future US President who ushered in an age of political comity (or upheaval, doesn't matter)...etc etc. So I lean to the robust interpretation myself as well.
 
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Lets see one of interesting time travel paradoxes here, maybe...?

Enterprise-C went back in time, so no war happened between Federation and Klingons. So, Tasha shouldn't even "have existed" in the alternate timeline because Ent-C prevented it happening at all. However, she ended up producing offspring in the "correct" timeline... what...

More importantly: in the Vanished-C War Timeline, what happened/happens to the USS Bozeman?
 
^ I believe it was in 'Parallels', Data says there's a theory that everything that could happen, do happen... who knows.

If a new universe / timeline is born everytime something happens, there isn't enough numbers in the universe to count them. :)

Yup this is the going theory now with the new Abrams movies. Time travel creates whole alternate universes. So alternate Tasha can still give birth to Commander Sela instead of just ceasing to exist. Which also means back in her universe the Federation is an occupied Klingon territory.
 
Since
More importantly: in the Vanished-C War Timeline, what happened/happens to the USS Bozeman?
Since there will no longer be an Ent-D there for it to crash into, it will sail into the 24th century unharmed and carry on its merry way.
 
It's kind of amazing that the shenanigans in STIV didn't blow the timeline out of the water. So to speak. A phaser left behind. The formula for transparent aluminum given to some guy who may or may not have been the original inventor. A Klingon bird of prey sighting. A kidney regrown. Many, many interactions, including a witnessed Vulcan neck pinch. Two whales no longer excisting in that time who might or might not have continued to live in that time, but for sure existed in it. And that's just the obvious stuff--a careless word, a pizza dinner delayed for someone else who decided to leave the restaurant and get Chinese food, but instead was struck by a truck and killed and no longer had three children, one of whom was a direct ancestor of Richard Daystromm; maybe that guy Kirk double-dumbassed was on the edge of insanity and Kirk's curse sent him over and he killed 10, including a future US President who ushered in an age of political comity (or upheaval, doesn't matter)...etc etc. So I lean to the robust interpretation myself as well.

For all we know, everything you just mentioned was always supposed to happen, and there never was a timeline where they did not. You can't prove otherwise, at any rate.
 
Yup this is the going theory now with the new Abrams movies. Time travel creates whole alternate universes. So alternate Tasha can still give birth to Commander Sela instead of just ceasing to exist. Which also means back in her universe the Federation is an occupied Klingon territory.
The problem I have with that is the matter/energy requirement. WHERE does all that new stuff come from? A brand new universe, out of the blue, every time, say, a particle decays or doesn't decay or heads on a slightly different trajectory? Heck the number of possible splitting "events" isn't even theoretically countable I think, because of quantum uncertainty.

I don't buy it, never did (ie, Niven's All the Myriad Ways).
 
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The problem I have with that is the matter/energy requirement. WHERE does all that new stuff come from? A brand new universe, out of the blue, every time, say, a particle decays or doesn't decay or heads on a slightly different trajectory? Heck the number of possible splitting "events" isn't even theoretically countable I think, because of quantum uncertainty.

I don't buy it, never did (ie, Niven's All the Myriad Ways).

Maybe it's not new stuff. It's the same stuff. It would have to be, after all. The most efficient shape for it would be like a fizzy drink...in universe 1 I have sugar in my coffee, in universe 2, I don't. As in this model that changes exactly nothing (perhaps the next day the decision is the opposite, so I don't even have to change the day I buy sugar on or worry about possible diabetes over a life time.) universe 2 folds neatly back into universe 1 like a little bubble in order to conserve the multiverses energy.
Bigger events may create bigger bubbles, with bubbles within, divergent timelines that look straight or Web like....but assuming the universe has a begining and an end, the whole lot would fold out at point 1 and back in at part 2. And who knows, maybe back to the begining again like it's own big multiverse shaped bubble...if observed from outside. Much like the horizon is not a straight line.

I started writing a series of short stories about that, but the first one didn't sell or get much interest, so the project is in stasis until I find time to finish it.

Of course, that model explains things like quantum entanglement, spooky particles and where exactly all that dark matter is, but only from an imaginative point of view. I don't claim to be a physicist. And like Treks model, it works well enough for the story being told, and can't really be proven outright wrong. (it leads to a nice pub logic for atheism or religious belief belief ever having its respective nutters to stop being idiots too....if you conclusively prove God does not exist, another world exists where God is proven to exist by the same means. Since God is omnipotent etc, he then exists in all worlds, and in favt always would have done....disproving God would have the opposite effect. The reverse would also likely be true, as a universe with conclusive proof of God would create one where that conclusion was opposite, therefore God doesn't exist, because it's part of the nature of God the exist everywhere...if that doesn't happen, then it isn't God. So you can never ever prove or disprove the existence of God..
The multiverse won't like it... Now granted that all depends on your definition for God and proof etc, but as I said....it's amusing pub logic. I came up with it in a student bar. It's a bit of fun, not a statement, in case Dawkins Storm Troopers or Militant Religious Storm Troopers get all upset...my beliefs are my own, and may or may not be anything to do with this pub logic.)
 
Maybe it's not new stuff. It's the same stuff. It would have to be, after all. The most efficient shape for it would be like a fizzy drink...in universe 1 I have sugar in my coffee, in universe 2, I don't. As in this model that changes exactly nothing (perhaps the next day the decision is the opposite, so I don't even have to change the day I buy sugar on or worry about possible diabetes over a life time.) universe 2 folds neatly back into universe 1 like a little bubble in order to conserve the multiverses energy.
Bigger events may create bigger bubbles, with bubbles within, divergent timelines that look straight or Web like....but assuming the universe has a begining and an end, the whole lot would fold out at point 1 and back in at part 2. And who knows, maybe back to the begining again like it's own big multiverse shaped bubble...if observed from outside. Much like the horizon is not a straight line.

I started writing a series of short stories about that, but the first one didn't sell or get much interest, so the project is in stasis until I find time to finish it.

Of course, that model explains things like quantum entanglement, spooky particles and where exactly all that dark matter is, but only from an imaginative point of view. I don't claim to be a physicist. And like Treks model, it works well enough for the story being told, and can't really be proven outright wrong. (it leads to a nice pub logic for atheism or religious belief belief ever having its respective nutters to stop being idiots too....if you conclusively prove God does not exist, another world exists where God is proven to exist by the same means. Since God is omnipotent etc, he then exists in all worlds, and in favt always would have done....disproving God would have the opposite effect. The reverse would also likely be true, as a universe with conclusive proof of God would create one where that conclusion was opposite, therefore God doesn't exist, because it's part of the nature of God the exist everywhere...if that doesn't happen, then it isn't God. So you can never ever prove or disprove the existence of God..
The multiverse won't like it... Now granted that all depends on your definition for God and proof etc, but as I said....it's amusing pub logic. I came up with it in a student bar. It's a bit of fun, not a statement, in case Dawkins Storm Troopers or Militant Religious Storm Troopers get all upset...my beliefs are my own, and may or may not be anything to do with this pub logic.)

I'm an atheist myself, but if I were a believer couldn't I argue that God exists outside this multiversal bubble folding, exists outside the multiverse in fact, and that the existence of God is not dependent one way or the other on our beliefs? Thus an objective proof of God's existence, if you could come by one, would always be the correct conclusion as God has an absolute existence outside and essentially being the multiverse while also containing it, and thus any limitation imposed by the multiverse on our positive proofs of God would be inapplicable to Him, as the multiverse is His creature and not vice versa?
 
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I'm an atheist myself, but if I were a believer couldn't I argue that God exists outside this multiversal bubble folding, exists outside the multiverse in fact, and that the existence of God is not dependent one way or the other on our beliefs? Thus an objective proof of God's existence, if you could come by one, would always be the correct conclusion as God has an absolute existence outside and essentially being the multiverse while also containing it, and thus any limitation imposed by the multiverse on our positive proofs of God would be inapplicable to Him, as the multiverse is His creature and not vice versa?

That's the problem...you would have to start putting limitations on a God to make it fit. (it's why I only use the traditional judeochristian God in the pub logic) otherwise you could go all 'aha I believe in a God that exists everywhere in the universe, but only on a Tuesday and half day Wednesday....since the proof was found on a Friday afternoon after a pub lunch, it's going to be a few days before we can see what He thinks.'

It's not serious like I said..just pub logic, that admittedly rather nearly says 'its not like you two can ever win the argument so put the leaflets down and stop frothing at the mouth, have a pint and talk about the football'
It's something ds9 does much more seriously throughout its run, which of course ties in to the time travel, because that's exactly why the prophets are so successful at straddling the line in trek. They don't exist in time the way we do.

I like Treks time travel model. It says there is a path, it's a wide one, but wander roo far off it and you are stuck having to get back on it. It gives a level of responsibility to the characters whenever rime travel does rear it's head.
 
God is a fizzy drink? Richard Dawkins is a storm trooper? But only on Wednesdays? These aren't the selfish genes you are looking for. I'll go have a pint with the prophets. Or will I?
 
Oh, what a fun thread! It reminds me of a short story I wrote back in 2004. It covers some of the items talked about up-topic, such as multi-verse and chaos theory / butterfly effect.

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/short-story-set-in-st-tos-era-timelines.221197/

There's a ton of Easter Eggs including one about this exact episode.
Loved that story! The GOF really doesn't get attention (not least I'm sure because it is absurdly powerful) but you've done a fine job here. Thank you!
 
Thanks. Part 19 has the Easter Egg about Yesterday's Enterprise. I really should sit down and make a list of all the Easter Eggs. It's been 12 years since I wrote that, and I may forget a few.
 
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