Year of Hell

[Pauln6]

Year of Hell would have been great as a half season arc. They should have kept Jennifer Lien around long enough to expose her to chroniton radiation to at least make for a half-hearted attempt to plug that paradox. Overall the time travel thing doesn't make huge sense - if you go with NuTrek's many worlds theory then all Annorax is doing is shunting his crew into a parallel reality that is dependent on each tweak.

The Voyager we see at the end is not the same Voyager we see at the beginning. (that Voyager is stuck in a cycle of destruction per many worlds theory). The Voyager we see is a Voyager that avoided disaster because Annorax never built his device in that parallel timeline.

It would have been a better ending if Kes, as a result of being exposed to chroniton radiation was able to use her powers to free our original Voyager from the time trap as part of her swan song.

 

[exodus]

I suppose to answer my original question, I'm wondering if the episode implies that it's always supposed to be the year 2373 for Annorax and his crew. No matter how many centuries they remian on the weapon ship, it will always be 2373 outside. It would have to be that way because how can they know what the future timeline is supposed to be like? If it was 200 years later from their launch date, their entire culture would look alien to them.

Since Annorax and his crew had been on their mission for 200 years, the universe outside their ship should be 2373. But since they exist in some kind of temporal flux, it's still 2173 to them.

But there is something else that I don't understand: They had been manipulating the timeline for 200 years, then Voyager pushes the big reset button ... and in the end everything is how we remember it (except for Before And After of course) ... how is that possible? Everything Voyager had encountered until now was supposed to be a result of the timeline incursions, right? Now that the timeline has been reset to how it was supposed to evolve for the past 200 years, it should be radically different!

I thought the temperal incursions only accured as far as the shockwave went. Once it dissipated, wouldn't time beyond it be unaffected? Like a wave hitting the shore.

 

[DonIago]

I think the shockwaves went as far as they needed to to undo everything impacted by the "nuked" target.

Given the number of different timelines portrayed during the two-parter, it would have been nifty, though perhaps somewhat implausible, if at one point Seven was replaced with Kes, or they were both on the ship, and then Kes disappeared again after another temporal shift.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Something similar happened in the Justice league cartoon and then swish swish... the big sexy black man Green Lantern John Stewart warbles into that cracker deush Hal Jordan.

It all comes down to money.

If they had a spare ten bucks and left some raw meat out by the sliding doors to the soundstage it's likely they could have baited Michael Dorn for a walk through.

 

[exodus]

Something similar happened in the Justice league cartoon and then swish swish... the big sexy black man Green Lantern John Stewart warbles into that cracker deush Hal Jordan.

I shouldn't laugh at this but I can't help it.

 

[crouteru]

Except for the overlap with Before and After.

It would have been so cool if they just threw in some old crew who had died or completely new crew we had never had before...

They could have brought back Stadi.

Stuck her right between Tom and B'Elanna.

Sparks.

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

 

[crouteru]

I've watched this two-parter again recently, and I find this very confusing:

We learn that Annorax and his crew have been trying to restore the Krenim Imperium for 200 years, and Annorax is waiting for the perfect timeline where his wife is alive, but shouldn't she be long dead anyway? It is 200 years later, all the people they know would be long dead...

There's no mention in the episode that they remain in the same time period, only that they don't age. Clearly we see that time is still moving forward for them outside the weapon ship.

Isn't that what Annorax was trying to explain when he said for time past, present & future all breathe as one? So I figured he was saying that he could manipulate linear time to have no meaning. Due to that, time was punishing him by not giving him what he wanted due to messing with it.

I'm guessing the writers left it ambiguous enough to avoid any explanations that didn't make sense!

 

[DonIago]

Except for the overlap with Before and After.

It would have been so cool if they just threw in some old crew who had died or completely new crew we had never had before...

They could have brought back Stadi.

Stuck her right between Tom and B'Elanna.

Sparks.

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

By region I assume you mean the DQ in general and not Krenim space in particular, since the borders of that region were clearly rather fluid.

 

[exodus]

Except for the overlap with Before and After.

It would have been so cool if they just threw in some old crew who had died or completely new crew we had never had before...

They could have brought back Stadi.

Stuck her right between Tom and B'Elanna.

Sparks.

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

By region I assume you mean the DQ in general and not Krenim space in particular, since the borders of that region were clearly rather fluid.

For my understanding region is a flexible term that can mean specified territory or indefinite portion of area. So it can apply to the area of space the Krenuim occupy regardless of the changing boarders.

 

[DonIago]

My point was that I never got the impression that the effects of the Krenim weapon were geographically constricted.

 

[exodus]

My point was that I never got the impression that the effects of the Krenim weapon were geographically constricted.

I kinda figured it was when the crew of Voyager didn't notice other ships changing size and configuration until they got to that region and started seeing shock waves.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Except for the overlap with Before and After.

It would have been so cool if they just threw in some old crew who had died or completely new crew we had never had before...

They could have brought back Stadi.

Stuck her right between Tom and B'Elanna.

Sparks.

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

Um, no.

They first experienced the changes in season twos before and After but from revelations to genesis even if time played out completely the same for the first 5 billion years it was a different timeline to perhaps not a casual observer, but "matter" had been removed from existence from the beginning. Time is like Jenga. And we didn't see the first 200 years worth of changes Annorax made playing with Krenim space by by extension the rest of the universe. Voyager interacting with thousands of different krenim Empires and arriving with or without kes' forewarning for one reason or another and how that changes Janeways composition toward these people who killed her in another timeline she has been told about. You will notice that Janeway didn't know who the Krenim was this time around, this thousandth time around, who suddenly a little later knew who her 20th century ancestors were despite saying she didn't in futures end, and claiming that she had never met Barcaly in Pathfinder despite having an adventure with his hologram in projections.

For your position to be true.

There would have to be some barrier.

A dividing line barrier point of differentiation between naked time and altered time that people on the outside could look in and say "What the fuck is that? Fuck. We're next."

And the locals in surrounding space outside this barrier perhaps bubble (a temporal shield around "Krenim space" and the nieghbours they wanted to consume) would have to be complete bastards not to put up warning signs and danger buoys surrounding such a vicious region where dozens of planets are vanishing dozen after dozen and the empires of note are rising and falling without pause or integrity.

More so, that because every timeline plays out till dooms day, all the thousands and thousands of timelines that Annorax crafted, each one of the Voyagers from all of those time lines would all leave that "region" (and any ship really, or even planets whose orbit dips in and out back and forth over the division between naked and altered time.) intact and wondering why there are all these dopplegangers following them out of "Krenim" space.

Define region, because (reused sfx) the planet from Virtuoso seen in Voyagers 6th season was one of the worlds Annorax demolished.

So, no.

Time is a universal constant which flows like water at the speed of reality.

I once supposed that the ripples of Annoraxs weapon would be creating thousands of rings of causality for the next untold infinity years till till they all hit the rim of reality... Fuck. You know what could hem in Annorax's causality weapon? A barrier no one would notice? Because it's so fricking big and has always been there...

The Galactic Barrier.

(Watch the TOS pilot not Star Trek V.)

 

[DonIago]

^^That might be more of an indicator of the impacted races' influence in the region throughout time than anything else.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

By region I assume you mean the DQ in general and not Krenim space in particular, since the borders of that region were clearly rather fluid.

For my understanding region is a flexible term that can mean specified territory or indefinite portion of area. So it can apply to the area of space the Krenuim occupy regardless of the changing boarders.

It's about causality. Causality extends forever backwards and forwards and it moves like some sort of super contagious virus. If in 2000 years anyone the Krenim altered or destroyed were supposed to ally with the Federation and they didn't because their "presence" had been removed or altered then that alliance never happened, so for the next 15 billion years after that the federation is subtly or magnificently different because that alliance never happened or happened differently as well as every other person/species that was supposed to interact with the federation for the next 40 trillion years and everyone that was supposed to interact those friends of the federation for the next 180 googleplex years universally.

Changing the composition of the universe is changing composition of the universe just like changing the composition of a cake is changing the composition of a cake. You can't take away the peanuts and then wonder why there are not peanut shells?

 

[Guy Gardener]

^^That might be more of an indicator of the impacted races' influence in the region throughout time than anything else.

But no one is unimpacted and no one knew they were impacted until Janeway invents temporal shields while Annorax is blinking.

 

[Oso Blanco]

The point is that you cannot erase an entire species or race from existence and keep the changes limited to a specific region in space! It would have an impact on the whole Delta Quadrant, if not the whole Galaxy!

 

[crouteru]

Except for the overlap with Before and After.

It would have been so cool if they just threw in some old crew who had died or completely new crew we had never had before...

They could have brought back Stadi.

Stuck her right between Tom and B'Elanna.

Sparks.

Voyager only began experiencing the changes in the timeline once they entered that region of space. I don't see how the erasure of a species or whatever could result in dead crew members like Stadi coming back, since her death had nothing to do with anything in Krenim space.

Um, no.

They first experienced the changes in season twos before and After but from revelations to genesis even if time played out completely the same for the first 5 billion years it was a different timeline to perhaps not a casual observer, but "matter" had been removed from existence from the beginning. Time is like Jenga. And we didn't see the first 200 years worth of changes Annorax made playing with Krenim space by by extension the rest of the universe. Voyager interacting with thousands of different krenim Empires and arriving with or without kes' forewarning for one reason or another and how that changes Janeways composition toward these people who killed her in another timeline she has been told about. You will notice that Janeway didn't know who the Krenim was this time around, this thousandth time around, who suddenly a little later knew who her 20th century ancestors were despite saying she didn't in futures end, and claiming that she had never met Barcaly in Pathfinder despite having an adventure with his hologram in projections.

For your position to be true.

There would have to be some barrier.

A dividing line barrier point of differentiation between naked time and altered time that people on the outside could look in and say "What the fuck is that? Fuck. We're next."

And the locals in surrounding space outside this barrier perhaps bubble (a temporal shield around "Krenim space" and the nieghbours they wanted to consume) would have to be complete bastards not to put up warning signs and danger buoys surrounding such a vicious region where dozens of planets are vanishing dozen after dozen and the empires of note are rising and falling without pause or integrity.

More so, that because every timeline plays out till dooms day, all the thousands and thousands of timelines that Annorax crafted, each one of the Voyagers from all of those time lines would all leave that "region" (and any ship really, or even planets whose orbit dips in and out back and forth over the division between naked and altered time.) intact and wondering why there are all these dopplegangers following them out of "Krenim" space.

Define region, because (reused sfx) the planet from Virtuoso seen in Voyagers 6th season was one of the worlds Annorax demolished.

So, no.

Time is a universal constant which flows like water at the speed of reality.

I once supposed that the ripples of Annoraxs weapon would be creating thousands of rings of causality for the next untold infinity years till till they all hit the rim of reality... Fuck. You know what could hem in Annorax's causality weapon? A barrier no one would notice? Because it's so fricking big and has always been there...

The Galactic Barrier.

(Watch the TOS pilot not Star Trek V.)

Lol, it looks like you're using this Krenim weapon ship to explain away many plot holes and inconsistancies from other Voyager episodes.

It's an interesting theory, but I doubt it's one that was ever considered to have lasting effects over such a large group of episodes.

When I said "region of space", I was referring to the point where Voyager would start to get affected by changes in the timeline.

My assumption was that Voyager would be unaffected by the changes until they interacted with people/events that were erased, thus changing the way things play out for them.

No theory is right or wrong, since, you know, it's science-fiction after all!

 

[Guy Gardener]

The krenim themselves through labour and ingenuity or Annorax with the push of a button, seemed to remove the Borg from known space in the Before and After timeline, baring skipping over the bastards by finding a wormwhole or some errant tech they could only use briefly, since they managed to make up ground they didn't get from Kes' "gift" which means that the Borg never Attacked Zephram Chochrane in 2064.

That is a direct impact on Earths distant history by Annorax. hell they might have even destroyed the Borg before Picard should have met them in Q-Who? With out the battle of Wolf 359, that would have changed the shit out the AQ. Maybe Eluria never fell to the Borg anf ZGuinin never signed up as a barkeep on the Enterprise which means that time was never course corrected during yesterdays Enterprise and the Klingons Conquered the federation in 2367ish.

Mean the Vadwarr had met the Talaxians in season six and there was a colony of talaxians in season 7... Neelix was in earth space in the year 1996.

Another direct, well less direct impact on earth half a century before the last.

And what do you think would happen if the weapon had fired on Voyager?

I wonder if removing the Voth would have any impact on Earth?

 

[exodus]

By region I assume you mean the DQ in general and not Krenim space in particular, since the borders of that region were clearly rather fluid.

For my understanding region is a flexible term that can mean specified territory or indefinite portion of area. So it can apply to the area of space the Krenuim occupy regardless of the changing boarders.

It's about causality. Causality extends forever backwards and forwards and it moves like some sort of super contagious virus. If in 2000 years anyone the Krenim altered or destroyed were supposed to ally with the Federation and they didn't because their "presence" had been removed or altered then that alliance never happened, so for the next 15 billion years after that the federation is subtly or magnificently different because that alliance never happened or happened differently as well as every other person/species that was supposed to interact with the federation for the next 40 trillion years and everyone that was supposed to interact those friends of the federation for the next 180 googleplex years universally.

Changing the composition of the universe is changing composition of the universe just like changing the composition of a cake is changing the composition of a cake. You can't take away the peanuts and then wonder why there are not peanut shells?

What!?!

 

[crouteru]

The krenim themselves through labour and ingenuity or Annorax with the push of a button, seemed to remove the Borg from known space in the Before and After timeline, baring skipping over the bastards by finding a wormwhole or some errant tech they could only use briefly, since they managed to make up ground they didn't get from Kes' "gift" which means that the Borg never Attacked Zephram Chochrane in 2064.

That is a direct impact on Earths distant history by Annorax. hell they might have even destroyed the Borg before Picard should have met them in Q-Who? With out the battle of Wolf 359, that would have changed the shit out the AQ. Maybe Eluria never fell to the Borg anf ZGuinin never signed up as a barkeep on the Enterprise which means that time was never course corrected during yesterdays Enterprise and the Klingons Conquered the federation in 2367ish.

Mean the Vadwarr had met the Talaxians in season six and there was a colony of talaxians in season 7... Neelix was in earth space in the year 1996.

Another direct, well less direct impact on earth half a century before the last.

And what do you think would happen if the weapon had fired on Voyager?

I wonder if removing the Voth would have any impact on Earth?

I don't doubt that any one of those examples would have far reaching consequences for Earth and the Alpha Quadrant, but Annorax only seemed to be interested in erasing things that would have a direct effect on the Krenim Imperium. There's no evidence to suggest he tried erasing the Borg from history, unless they tried to assimilate the Krenim. Voyager only became a target once their temporal shields caused Annorax's calculations to mess up, thus making Voyager a necessary erasure to undo that problem.