XI's makers mess up their history/continuity

[Peter the Younger]

Don't assume that Kirk would have been prevented from going back and taking the test again after graduation. I have a vague recollection that Kirk transferred from security to command so he might have taken the test a second or third time around that time as a way of strengthening his transfer request.

This was always my thought, that Kirk went back to Starfleet Academy to attend Command School or somesuch. He could have taught the undergrad cadets (including Mitchell) at this time. Essentially, Kirk would have been a grad student.

(To be honest, I would have preferred if they went with something like this in the film, but I suspect the details of Academy academic programs would have been confusing.)

 

[Captrek]

I still can't believe that the way things happened in XI was the same way they did in the prime reality.

I think you mean “I still can't believe that the way things happened in XI was the same way they did in TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and the first ten films.” And you’re right. They didn’t. It’s a retcon. No big deal.

After 716 TV episodes and 10 movies, a franchise going into its fifth decade is bound to have the occasional retcon, and for the same reason they happen in comic books. Over the past 45 years, creative minds in Star Trek made a million decisions about how to depict events in the Star Trek universe, and many of those decisions were about trivial things and arbitrary. Now there are new creative minds inheriting the franchise, and they don’t to be constrained by every single one of those trivial and arbitrary decisions when they’re not compatible with the story the new minds want to tell.

 

[EJA]

In ST II Spock quite clearly says to Kirk "I understand you took the [Kobayashi Maru] test yourself." Now this, to me, would strongly indicate that Spock wasn't really involved with that incident at the time, it was just something he heard about. People don't normally say things like "I understand..." when they witnessed the events themselves and were part of it. I shouldn't think cadets would be allowed to programme major training simulations, and I can't see how Spock could have been doing so in the mid to late 2250s, as he was serving with Pike on the Enterprise at that time. Hence, my argument.

 

[Devon]

In ST II Spock quite clearly says to Kirk "I understand you took the [Kobayashi Maru] test yourself."

That wasn't the line. "As I recall, you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique."

I shouldn't think cadets would be allowed to programme major training simulations,

He wasn't a cadet, he was a commander, thus how he was already the first officer.

 

[FarStrider]

In ST II Spock quite clearly says to Kirk "I understand you took the [Kobayashi Maru] test yourself." Now this, to me, would strongly indicate that Spock wasn't really involved with that incident at the time, it was just something he heard about. People don't normally say things like "I understand..." when they witnessed the events themselves and were part of it. I shouldn't think cadets would be allowed to programme major training simulations, and I can't see how Spock could have been doing so in the mid to late 2250s, as he was serving with Pike on the Enterprise at that time. Hence, my argument.

That's like saying Doctor McCoy couldn't practice medicine while he was a cadet. Spock is a product of Vulcan education, he probably had a degree or two when he enrolled at the Academy, we also know that he had an A7 Computer expert ranking. . . as a computer expert and graduate cadet student, he very well could have programmed the Kobayashi Maru simulation as a graduate project before going off on the Enterprise with Captain Pike in TOS in 2254. . . we don't know, it is never said, but it is not an impossible scenario.

In the new Timeline, Spock is teaching at the Academy while waiting for his ship to be finished. . .and from 2254-2258 he is head programmer on the KM simulation. That is now canon.

~FS

 

[EJA]

Have I mentioned how "A Private Little War" establishes that Kirk Prime was already a lieutenant in 2255 in the prime reality? It seems likely to me that he would have graduated at around the same time as Spock Prime.

 

[EJA]

Don't assume that Kirk would have been prevented from going back and taking the test again after graduation. I have a vague recollection that Kirk transferred from security to command so he might have taken the test a second or third time around that time as a way of strengthening his transfer request.

This was always my thought, that Kirk went back to Starfleet Academy to attend Command School or somesuch. He could have taught the undergrad cadets (including Mitchell) at this time. Essentially, Kirk would have been a grad student.

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Spock wouldn't have been overseeing the KM at that time though, because he was in active service on the Enterprise.

 

[FarStrider]

Have I mentioned how "A Private Little War" establishes that Kirk Prime was already a lieutenant in 2255 in the prime reality? It seems likely to me that he would have graduated at around the same time as Spock Prime.

Depending on the source you read, Kirk is one to three years younger than Spock. . . given that Gary Mitchell says he was a stack of books with legs, we know he's very smart. Those graduating at or near the top of their classes graduate as lieutenants, not ensigns. . so Kirk very well could have graduated in 2255 as a lieutenant. . .

We know Spock was assigned to the Enterprise in 2254. . . so he still could have worked on the Koybayashi Maru in the original timeline, and Kirk, being a year behind him, could have taken the test in his final year.

~FS

 

[Admiral_Young]

EJA you're really interested in fictional continuities aren't you? You assume that both realities follow the exact same historical path, which they most likely do not. Just because Kirk and Spock knew each other at the Academy in the "Star Trek" reality does not mean they did so the Prime universe. As another poster said they merely suggested this as a possibility, not that it happened. I have always assumed that Kirk first met Spock when he took command of the Enterprise after Pike was promoted...there is no on screen continuity to show us otherwise if they'd known each other long before this or not. I got the impression from watching "Where No Man Has Gone Before" that Kirk and Spock hadn't known or worked with each other very long.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah. The STXI-style meeting (which may have happened earlier in the prime universe) is only mentioned as a possibility in the commentary. Any number of excuses could be made to get them into that situation if needed.

I personally like the old novel The Kobayashi Maru as the story of how Kirk Prime beat his test (Spock has nothing to do with it at all). I don't really have a preference for when Kirk and Spock meet - I've enjoyed stories where thet meet as teens and ones where they meet as officers on the Enterprise. I don't feel the need to say "X is the right way, Y is wrong".

 

[thumbtack]

You assume that both realities follow the exact same historical path.

I've never understood this at all. There's no science or logic to it. Just stubborn canon-clinging, really.

 

[Admiral_Young]

What's hard to understand about it? Many theoretical physicists believe in the possibility that there are alternate worlds/parallel universes. I'm not sure to what you refer to since you didn't elaborate and just chose to insult the notion.

 

[FarStrider]

What's hard to understand about it? Many theoretical physicists believe in the possibility that there are alternate worlds/parallel universes. I'm not sure to what you refer to since you didn't elaborate and just chose to insult the notion.

Actually, I think Thumbtack is saying that he doesn't understand why people are trying to force TOS canon onto STXI reality. . .there is no science or logic to doing that. . . That's the way I read that comment. . .


~FS

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I personally like the old novel The Kobayashi Maru as the story of how Kirk Prime beat his test (Spock has nothing to do with it at all).

I haven't read it, but I much prefer the idea behind the Strange New Worlds story "A Test of Character,"

Spoiler: where Kirk's

reprogramming of the simulation only makes it possible to save the ship, not a guaranteed outcome.

Pretty clever extrapolation, IMO. I thought The Kobayashi Maru's version of Kirk's beating the test was pretty silly.

PS - couldn't get the Spoiler tags to work for some reason.

[I put some tags in, just in case - M']

 

[kkozoriz1]

I personally like the old novel The Kobayashi Maru as the story of how Kirk Prime beat his test (Spock has nothing to do with it at all).

I haven't read it, but I much prefer the idea behind the Strange New Worlds story "A Test of Character," where Kirk's reprogramming of the simulation only makes it possible to save the ship, not a guaranteed outcome. Pretty clever extrapolation, IMO. I thought The Kobayashi Maru's version of Kirk's beating the test was pretty silly.

PS - couldn't get the Spoiler tags to work for some reason.

I can imagine the SNW story being closer to how Kirk Prime did it.

NuKirk is many things but subtle isn't one of them.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Ahhh okay if that is the case then I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I can imagine the SNW story being closer to how Kirk Prime did it.

NuKirk is many things but subtle isn't one of them.

Yes, I thought his solution worked very well for this Kirk's cockier character. And him actually munching on an apple during the test cracked me up.

PS - Thanks to M'Sharak for adding the spoiler tags! What was I doing wrong?

 

[M'Sharak]

PS - Thanks to M'Sharak for adding the spoiler tags! What was I doing wrong?

Well, I'm not sure what you tried, but the tags go something like this (omitting the spaces):

[SPO ILER="what your spoiler is about"]Put your actual spoiler material here[/SPO ILER]

and ends up looking like this:

Spoiler: a label telling what your spoiler is about

put your actual spoilers here

You can also click on the little yellow guy above (

) and you'll be prompted to enter your label and spoiler details.