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XI's influence on the literature

as well as more stories set in the TV era rather than the post-ST V era.
But that was also partly because Richard Arnold was getting harder and harder to please getting post-ST IV and V stories approved, IIRC.
Except that Arnold had been fired by that time. Margaret was the editor on the last two years of DC's second series. Really, only Bob Greenberger had to deal with Arnold's asshattery on the comics; he didn't pass the editorial torch to Kim Yale until after Star Trek VI came out.
 
And this probably because of a changing Star Trek audience.

I think it's more because of the changing editors. Marco was a key driving force behind the continuity, and Margaret participated in that, but left to her own devices I think Margaret was more interested in doing standalone stories. For what it's worth, when she took over as editor on DC's Trek comics some years back, the TOS comic became less serialized and had more episodic stories (i.e. still multipart stories but with little to no connection between different stories), as well as more stories set in the TV era rather than the post-ST V era.
But weren't Troublesome Minds, Inception, The Children of Kings, Unspoken Truths, and so on all commissioned by Marco? Or am I misremembering?
 
Except that Arnold had been fired by that time. Margaret was the editor on the last two years of DC's second series. Really, only Bob Greenberger had to deal with Arnold's asshattery on the comics; he didn't pass the editorial torch to Kim Yale until after Star Trek VI came out.

Yeah, Richard departed that role when Roddenberry died in September 1991, but there was still a decree from the Licensing division that discouraged the ongoing DC comics storylines (TOS movies and TNG) from attempting to loop in the then-current movie's events until after the next movie (or TNG season), to avoid the jumping-thru-hoops that was needed to get the post-ST III (and Season Two TNG) comics back into line for the next canonical instalment.
 
^But I'm talking about TOS comics published in 1995-6, after the TOS movies had ended. So there's no possible way in which that could've been a factor in the changes I'm discussing.
 
A return to the standalone, non-consistent days would greatly disappoint me.

It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. In my opinion the best way to go is to have a healthy mix between "continuity novels" and stand-alone novels, something the line hasn't really been able to provide yet. It almost felt as if they've gone from only stand alone novels in the Arnold-era to almost only continuity novels in the Palmieri/DeCandido/Clark era, with a "short" transitional Ordover-era inbetween with many event and gimmick novels.

I don't think I made myself clear... I'm not advocating that each novel be a direct continuation of the previous novel. I'm envisioning something a bit more like Nu-Battlestar Galactica in which there were many standalone episodes, but they still took place within the overall continuity. Even then, NuBSG was still probably more continuity-laden than I think TrekLit should be.

But I like seeing continual growth in the characters. One thing that always drove me nuts in the earlier days was that the characters never changed. I understand that they couldn't because the Trek Powers-That-Be needed to be the ones making the call, but now that that is really no longer much of a possibility with so many of these characters, why not let the characters continue to grow in TrekLit? And, for them to grow, there has to be a level of continuity in the novels.

Does that explain it better at all?
 
Speaking as someone who is going to be spending this year playing catch-up with a lot of the series and titles from the past five years or so...I wouldn't enjoy Trek Lit as much if it was made up entirely of standalones. I like big arcs and meta-stories that unfold over time, with characters growing and changing and going through their own personal hells and surviving--or not.

Not that I mind individual stories that stand great as an enclosed experience. But we would never have gotten, for example, the DS9 Relaunch that we have if that was all Trek Lit was. It just wouldn't be as fun to follow. Who wants every TNG story to be set on the Enterprise-D or between the movies? Who wants every Voyager story to be in the Delta Quadrant? That's just boring.
 
For my money, I've never had any trouble picking and choosing between novels I was interested in during the era of interconnected novel continuity. I ignored the VOY relaunch, jumped in with A Time to Kill, never read the fourth TTN novel, never read the first two TNG Relaunch novels, never read half the Lost Era novels... Etc. And it never once caused me any problems. So it's not like it's impossible to follow the novels without reading everything.
 
^True, from what I've heard, but I'm a more or less an anal retentive person. My nature just won't justify jumping in wherever I feel like it. If I can, I'll go through everything in order. :)

ETA: Besides, I'm looking forward to it. I'm expecting quite a few good ones from looking at the authors.
 
If the novels were switch back to the 90’s-style zero-continuity I would probably stop reading them.

I see the anti-continuity viewpoints, especially now that the TNG-era novels are moving further and further away from their TV-show roots. “Who are all these people on the Enterprise?” was my reaction when I first picked up Destiny, but it didn’t put me off. Afterward I worked by way backward though most of the TNG relaunch to find out who they were.

But all that’s necessary to avoid that stigma is to ‘re-introduce’ the new characters every few novels or have little mini-bios (more than Destiny had) and/or a timeline at the back. Didn’t New Frontier do something like that once?

All this talk of shrinking readerships and alienating newbies strikes me as a little pointless – all TrekLit needs to reach the masses is more and better advertising. The books won’t sell unless the masses know they exist, and they need a bigger hint than one more book materializing on a shelf in a store they wouldn’t normally bother going in.


About references and “fanwank” (my all-time lest favourite internet word): STXI got it right – it used references to other Treks the way they should be, as window dressing for the pretend future. You didn’t need to know anything the film didn’t tell you (well…aside from why Nero twiddled his thumbs for 25 years). For example Spock’s line to his mother about Kolinahr. What’s that? We know it’s something to do with Spock’s alien half, something that equates to renouncing his human half – just from what he said. Want more? Watch TMP. More still? Spock’s World gives the history of the Vulcan people and The Lost Years tells what the Kolinahr masters are, and what they used to be. So depending on your knowledge of Trek, “Kolinahr” was either “something to do with Spock’s alien half” (for the newbie) or “that thing he later does in TMP” (for the casual fan) or everything us die-hards know about it. Everyone got something out of it without alienating anyone else.

Compare to…

A bunch of space cadets we’ve never met before are at Starfleet Academy in The Best and Brightest. A succession of known Trek characters (Guinan, Dax, Picard, Boothby) “drop by” (like in those cheesy sitcoms, you can almost hear the canned cheers) with explanations like “I’m just here for [flimsy excuse] while [between episodes x and y]”. It’s gratuitous, pointless (only Dax’s cameo and the trip to the Enterprise really add anything) and annoying because I can’t even remember some of the episodes being referenced.

Enterprise did it all the time too: Brent Spiner episodes: “Maybe…artificial life (hint hint). It may take a few…(knowing smile)…generations (canned cheers)”. Archer: “one day someone will come up with a set of rules for us…a… directive (pause for applause)” or “Here’s to…(wait for it)… The Next Generation (crazed American-style whooping)”. None of this means anything to people who haven’t seen Trek outside of Enterprise, yet it’s given OTT emphasis so that newbies know they’re missing out on something, thus alienating them. Fail.
 
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About references and “fanwank” (my all-time lest favourite internet word): STXI got it right – it used references to other Treks the way they should be, as window dressing for the pretend future. You didn’t need to know anything the film didn’t tell you (well…aside from why Nero twiddled his thumbs for 25 years). For example Spock’s line to his mother about Kolinahr. What’s that? We know it’s something to do with Spock’s alien half, something that equates to renouncing his human half – just from what he said. Want more? Watch TMP. More still? Spock’s World gives the history of the Vulcan people and The Lost Years tells what the Kolinahr masters are, and what they used to be. So depending on your knowledge of Trek, “Kolinahr” was either “something to do with Spock’s alien half” (for the newbie) or “that thing he later does in TMP” (for the casual fan) or everything us die-hards know about it. Everyone got something out of it without alienating anyone else.

Compare to…

A bunch of space cadets we’ve never met before are at Starfleet Academy in The Best and Brightest. A succession of known Trek characters (Guinan, Dax, Picard, Boothby) “drop by” (like in those cheesy sitcoms, you can almost hear the canned cheers) with explanations like “I’m just here for [flimsy excuse] while [between episodes x and y]”. It’s gratuitous, pointless (only Dax’s cameo and the trip to the Enterprise really add anything) and annoying because I can’t even remember some of the episodes being referenced.

Enterprise did it all the time too: Brent Spiner episodes: “Maybe…artificial life (hint hint). It may take a few…(knowing smile)…generations (canned cheers)”. Archer: “one day someone will come up with a set of rules for us…a… directive (pause for applause)” or “Here’s to…(wait for it)… The Next Generation (crazed American-style whooping)”. None of this means anything to people who haven’t seen Trek outside of Enterprise, yet it’s given OTT emphasis so that newbies know they’re missing out on something, thus alienating them. Fail.

For all my distaste with the film, I agree with you here, and I think this is a very good analysis, personally. :)

The only problem is that while you're quite right to point out that all we need to know about, for example, Kolinahr is "something to do with Vulcan-ness and so not Human-ness", the sad thing is there are plenty of people so used to- and needing- everything carefully explained, obvious and "dumbed down" that they'll be unlikely to even get that. They won't be able to make the connection. They'll say "eh? What's Kolinahr?" and be turned off. For example, when I watched "Avatar", well, you remember the scene where Neytiri sees the dandelion-seed thing floating around while watching Jake Sully and has a strong reaction to it? All we need to know is, as you say, the obvious- clearly this is something significant, spiritually or culturally important, a sign, something special. But many in the audience could be overheard (I overheard them) saying, essentially, "eh? What's that mean? I don't get it". So many people want everything explained to them and don't want to take even the slightest leap of intellect for themselves, and so will not respond to something that should be obvious even without the details. Essentially, they'll be unable to make the connection that Kolinahr is "something to do with Vulcan-ness and not Human-ness", and they'll say "Eh? What the hell's kolinahr?" Of course, if you were to explain "Kolinahr is a Vulcan rite wherein a Vulcan trains under the tutorage-" they'd soon get bored or feel this fictional world was too impenetrable to them and be alienated. If "Avatar" had explained explicitly the dandelion-seed's significance, no-one would have liked it.

I think this is why people are so hard to please. They want everything explained but don't like lengthy explanations.

My sister and I and a third party were watching a DS9 episode once. The subject of Winn running for First minister position came up. Kira was against it. The third person asked "why?". I began to explain that Winn is selfish, blind to her own selfishness, a zealot, convinced of her own moral superiority and thus dangerous, petty-. My sister interrupted and said "because she's evil". The third person said "oh, okay" and continued watching. :)
 
But Kolinahr was explained in the movie. Spock's exact line was, "Should I choose to complete the Vulcan discipline of Kolinahr, and purge all emotion, I trust you will not feel it reflects judgment upon you." So we're told right there that Kolinahr is a Vulcan discipline for purging all emotion. What more do we need to know?
 
Oops...I don't recall him explaining it but i'll take your word.
My point still applies to the other references in the film though, like the Katric Arks and saving the "essence" of the Vulcan people.
 
But Kolinahr was explained in the movie. Spock's exact line was, "Should I choose to complete the Vulcan discipline of Kolinahr, and purge all emotion, I trust you will not feel it reflects judgment upon you." So we're told right there that Kolinahr is a Vulcan discipline for purging all emotion. What more do we need to know?

Well then, I suppose the movie got it "right" by my standards. :lol: As you say, what more do we need? It seems it explained it clearly in direct, simple terms, without taking more than a few seconds and yet managed to leave no room for "huh? what?" responses by actually leaving anything vague.
 
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For my money, I've never had any trouble picking and choosing between novels I was interested in during the era of interconnected novel continuity. I ignored the VOY relaunch, jumped in with A Time to Kill, never read the fourth TTN novel, never read the first two TNG Relaunch novels, never read half the Lost Era novels... Etc. And it never once caused me any problems. So it's not like it's impossible to follow the novels without reading everything.
Exactly. I read the books that have stories that interest me or feature characters I like, and skip the ones I don't particularly care about. The writers are experts at filling you in with what you need to know for the story you're reading. For example, in A Singular Destiny, I had no problem at all understanding who the S.C.E. guys were and what they were all about, even though I never read any of the e-books, all because KRAD told me just what I needed to know in those pages. That happens a lot, and I never feel left out, even if there's a reference or two I don't get. For all I know, sometimes one of those references might be to some obscure episode of one of the series that I've forgotten all about, and not even have anything to do with one of the dozen books published yearly.
 
I'd be pretty happy if we did start getting more standalone stories, but at the same time I'd really like to see the series that are already sharing a continuity to stay that way. Even if they don't necessarily refer to each other or crossover all the time, I'd still rather see them stay consistent.
As for the fanwank, as long as it relates to the current events and doesn't detract from the story, I'm happy. It just drives me crazy when I'm reading a story, and there is some random reference to an event 10 years earlier in the timeline that really has nothing to do with the story. Luckily I can't really think of anything like this happening in any of the Trek Lit I've read, but I know it does happen from time to time. For something to detract from a story for me it's pretty much just when it's either overly long or doesn't make sense. Now the Kolinahr example above is pretty much the perfect example of a good reference for me, it makes sense in context and it's explained in a quick way that doesn't hurt the pace of the story.
 
Actually I find that line a little awkward. Amanda surely already knew what Kolinahr was, so for Spock to call it "the Vulcan discipline of Kolinahr" was a definite case of narrating to the audience. But it was handled quickly and smoothly enough that it worked okay in the moment. (Unlike Pike's "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada" line.)
 
(Unlike Pike's "peacekeeping and humanitarian armada" line.)
Oh man, that one was awkward. Especially as he uses it to describe the Federation.

"Son, do you know what the United States of America is? It's a large military naval force..."
 
^Yeah. Given that the line was delivered when Pike was off-camera -- and isn't in the novelization -- I figure that it was dubbed in fairly late in the editing process, perhaps after someone in a focus group asked "So what the heck is this Federation anyway?"
 
William Leisner said:
it boggles my mind that we're arguing about whether Star Trek should be referenced in Star Trek novels, because new Star Trek readers may be turned off by references to Star Trek in their Star Trek.

I love this! Mind if I use it as a sig?
 
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