Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

[Mach5]

I'd be the last person to give These are the Voyages... credence (especially what seems to have gone down in history as the final voyage of the NX-01).

However in 2371, Riker & Troi are able to summon up a holodeck program and overhear Archer talking to T'Pol about how Shran helped him get onboard the Xindi weapon.

Now we can debate how those TNG characters look nothing like they did during The Pegasus, but the intention is clear. Enterprise as seen for 4 years, was intended to have happened in the Prime timeline's past. There were obviously some changes for Daniels but since every decision a person makes does so, maybe all Temporal Agents operate outside the timeline and act as the self appointed authority on which alternate realities to allow to exist and which not to.

Assuming that Daniels wasn't lying, and the Xindi crisis was never meant to happen, that would de facto mean that the prime timeline was overwritten by ENT's season 3, no?

BTW, TATV? That is one episode for which we can say with utmost certainty that it happened in some obscure, never before seen alternate reality in which Riker and Troi at some point contracted some contagious form of progeria, Thomas Riker served aboard Enterprise, science uniforms weren't blue but turquoise and Starfleet officers were all suicidal.

 

[thew40]

Chronologically speaking, Enterprise takes place before all other Star Treks. Therefore, any alterations made to that time period would have already had an effect on the rest of the Trek timeline. Whether or not it was added to Daniels history is moot, as that era remained more or less intact since Daniels is still around in and doing his thing.

Enterprise experienced those altertions and as far as Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway are all concerned, it's history.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Off topic, but the hell...

What is the deal with the colour of TNG uniforms anyway? Way before TATV, I was noticing how the shades changed over the series. It's something nobody but me seems to pickup on. Does the fabric change under different lighting conditions? Or from video to film or digital? It happened a lot in FX shots, say Picard's uniform in front of the viewscreen. I'm aware that for us lot in Britain, the pitch of actors voices changed - sounding quicker due to the frame rate... but did converting NTSC to PAL also screw the colour up from time to time?

Is the same thing as Kirk's TOS tunic which fans watching on TV for decades assummed was Gold, but is in fact a shade of green? There's undeniably a difference in colour apparent when comparing Trials and Tribble-ations (90's video) with remastered Trouble with Tribbles (60's film)on Blu-ray. So I think video is contributing factor in all this.

I find it hard to believe they screwed up on the uniforms. Jonathan and Marina joked how they had to squeeze back into them. Didn't they just pull them out of storage after 11 years? Hadn't Medical/Sciences always been that colour, but for some reason only a HD camera could recreate it accurately?

 

[Mach5]

I find it hard to believe they screwed up on the uniforms. Jonathan and Marina joked how they had to squeeze back into them. Didn't they just pull them out of storage after 11 years? Hadn't Medical/Sciences always been that colour, but for some reason only a HD camera could recreate it accurately?

I dunno, I guess... But the difference is more than obvious:

 

[ChristopherPike]

^ Arrghhhh! Take it away! Take it away!

It's like acid for my eyes...



I'm in my happy place.

I'm in my happy place.

I'm in my happy place.


Traumatised,

Chris

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I'm not sure I understand the idea that history was "meant" to go a particular way. Stuff happens, y'know?

 

[Myasishchev]

Since the entire series was revealed as a holodeck program, there's very little that can be said to be 'canon'.

 

[The Wormhole]

There is no evidence that the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen. As far as we know, it was part of history all along. As was ENT itself.

DANIELS: "History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi."
(ENT: "Carpenter Street")

All that means is that Daniels's timeline didn't have a historical record of a conflict between humans and Xindi. For all we know, his timeline is different than the Trek Prime Timeline.

Since the entire series was revealed as a holodeck program, there's very little that can be said to be 'canon'.

No actually, only the final mission was depicted as a holodeck program.

 

[Sci]

There is no evidence that the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen. As far as we know, it was part of history all along. As was ENT itself.

DANIELS: "History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi."
(ENT: "Carpenter Street")

What makes you think Daniels comes from our timeline? What if he's from an alternate future timeline rather than ours? What makes you think that what was "supposed" to happen in his past is what was "supposed" to happen in the Prime Timeline?

 

[Mirror_Barclay]

There is no evidence that the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen. As far as we know, it was part of history all along. As was ENT itself.

DANIELS: "History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi."
(ENT: "Carpenter Street")

All that means is that Daniels's timeline didn't have a historical record of a conflict between humans and Xindi. For all we know, his timeline is different than the Trek Prime Timeline.

Since the entire series was revealed as a holodeck program, there's very little that can be said to be 'canon'.

No actually, only the final mission was depicted as a holodeck program.

Yes.

Assuming there was a finale to Enterprise showing Riker and Troi in the holodeck - and that's too stupid to believe - but if we pretend there was, are we going to say that Riker and Troi watched a re-enactment not of a particular mission, but of four years of history? During the crisis situation of one TNG episode?

That gives new meaning to the phrase "Star Trek Marathon."

 

[I am not Spock]

Indeed, we might argue that the Xindi attack is what Sulu refers to in TAS "Slaver Weapon", when he says that the Xindi fought four futile wars against Earth some two centuries prior to the episode's date of late 2260s or early 2270s.

He just pronounces "Xindi" a bit funnily - just like the feline Xindi do it, due to having a mouth full of very sharp teeth.

Timo Saloniemi

I actually like this theory, comical or not. The Xindi and the Kzinti could be the same thing. Why not a feline Xindi race?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Just because Daniels says it's true, doesn't mean it is. I see no reason to believe him.

Exactly, YOU see no reason. You choose to accept a version that works best for YOU, which is perfectly fine since this is all make-believe anyway.

Just as you see no reason to believe Daniels, I see no reason not to believe him. After all, Archer believed him.

(If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it could be a frog impersonating a duck, but it's most likely just a duck.)

Since the entire series was revealed as a holodeck program, there's very little that can be said to be 'canon'.

When did that happen? I dont recall anything in TATV stating that the events were a fictional holodeck program as opposed to the re-creation of actual historical events.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When did that happen? I dont recall anything in TATV stating that the events were a fictional holodeck program as opposed to the re-creation of actual historical events.

Only TATV itself was a holodeck program. The ENT series as a whole is 'real'.

 

[Nerys Myk]

When did that happen? I dont recall anything in TATV stating that the events were a fictional holodeck program as opposed to the re-creation of actual historical events.

Only TATV itself was a holodeck program. The ENT series as a whole is 'real'.

Good to know. Because I was afraid the the Alamo (mentioned in Ds9) might only exist as a holo program, too. Which would wreak havoc with my San Antonio, TX childhood.

 

[RandyS]

Actually, I'm not sure that there is a correct one. After all, "Parallels" teaches us that the number of timelines is infinite.

Parrallels is a special case. That was different parrallel universes. Not alternate timelines.

Think of the Mirror Universe, and you'll get it.

 

[Timo]

I actually like this theory, comical or not.

That's "cartoony or not", to be sure.

The Xindi and the Kzinti could be the same thing. Why not a feline Xindi race?

The only problems there are ones of timing. If the feline Xindi really struck a full 200 years before the TAS episode, then they'd have been attacking mere years after Cochrane's first flight. Earth would have been unlikely to triumph, except if aided by the Vulcans - and in that case, the feline Xindi would not consider Vulcans harmless herbivores...

If Sulu's "200 years ago" merely means "more than 100 years ago", though, then everything is possible. For all we know, the felines persisted with attacks against Earth even after the rest of the Xindi had ceased and desisted. For all we know, the Xindi flying the first, Florida-burning weapon was a feline one... And the last attack came sometime between "Terra Prime" and "These Are the Voyages", that is, about 120 years before the TAS episode.

Of course, I'm sure there were dozens of small conflicts before ENT that never got mentioned in episodes of ENT or TOS or the other spinoffs. Earth always gets attacked by all sorts of galactic riffraff, and somehow always prevails. Just because a past conflict is introduced to us is no proof that it suddenly "emerged into the timeline" or anything: Earth's history is martial through and through, and things like the Cardassian War or the Romulan War can easily be introduced in a single episode or even half a phrase, without this signifying that they were brought on by time travel, retcon, writer laziness or any such thing.

That was different parrallel universes. Not alternate timelines.

The very same thing, IMHO. A difference that makes no difference ain't a difference.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mach5]

That was different parrallel universes. Not alternate timelines.

The very same thing, IMHO. A difference that makes no difference ain't a difference.

Timo Saloniemi

Exactly! Bob Orci referenced "Parallels" many times and used it to justify his ST XI mcguffin.

As for the Daniels dilemma, the man who could give us a definitive answer logs in here every day, but probably enjoys our discussions too much to interfere.
(Mike Sussman, of course)

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That was different parrallel universes. Not alternate timelines.

The very same thing, IMHO.

Not the way I see it, no. An alternate universe is a distinct physical location. Matter in one universe has a distinct quantum signature that differentiates it from that of another universe. One can travel from one universe to another.

Not so with alternate *timelines*, which coexist in the same universe and are generally the result of time travel interfering with the flow of history. Thus an alternate timeline is more like a concept or idea than a physical place.

So the Mirror Universe, for instance, is not an alternate timeline. For several reasons: 1) There's no proof that it ever "diverged" from the main timeline, and 2) It's possible to travel from the RU to the MU.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Since the entire series was revealed as a holodeck program, there's very little that can be said to be 'canon'.

When did that happen? I dont recall anything in TATV stating that the events were a fictional holodeck program as opposed to the re-creation of actual historical events.

Their historical databanks are incomplete. They 'extrapolated' certain portions of the recreation. (Yes, I am plugging my ears and shouting "naanaanaaa")

 

[Pauln6]

That was different parrallel universes. Not alternate timelines.

The very same thing, IMHO.

Not the way I see it, no. An alternate universe is a distinct physical location. Matter in one universe has a distinct quantum signature that differentiates it from that of another universe. One can travel from one universe to another.

Not so with alternate *timelines*, which coexist in the same universe and are generally the result of time travel interfering with the flow of history. Thus an alternate timeline is more like a concept or idea than a physical place.

So the Mirror Universe, for instance, is not an alternate timeline. For several reasons: 1) There's no proof that it ever "diverged" from the main timeline, and 2) It's possible to travel from the RU to the MU.

Hmm I don't think that would work in terms of mathematics and physics. Two 'timelines' couldn't co-exist in all the same dimensions - there has to be something that differentiates them. I think scientists have extrapolated ten dimensions and each timeline or parallel must differ in at least one aspect in order to exist at all. I think the parallels are simply co-existing timelines.