WYLB Questions

[flemm]

To me it is just too cliched that the experience of true love changed the female changeling's mind.

It is a bit, or at least it could be if it were overdone, which is probably why the writers chose the understated approach. The whole Kira/Odo/Female changeling love triangle had its cheesy side, but it was a pretty major part of the show through seven seasons.

The Changelings have been around solids in the Gamma quadrant for centuries, I think they probably have a keen understanding of the ways of solids.

I don't think they do. The female changeling experienced "solid intimacy " for the first time with Odo in season 6.

Their agenda has been one of conquering worlds for a very long time and they have built whole races for this purpose. I don't think it was ever clearly shown why they are conquerors, surely it can't all be out of fear?

Well, the stories of the changelings' persecution at the hands of solids is given as the motivation for the Founder's secrecy and militant approach. They also seem to have a desire for order, though, as another motivating factor.

I think it would be very twee for a revelation of looooove to change all that.

I don't think it necessarily would, but it could certainly be enough to change the female changeling's mind on this occasion. As for the link, that is another issue, but it is certainly one of the reasons why Odo returns: he needs to share what he has learned, as was the stated purpose for sending the 100 out into the galaxy in the first place.

And anyway, I wouldn't describe Odo and Kira's relationship as clichéd exactly, at least not as expressed in season seven episodes such as Chimera. It's about love transcending barriers such as prejudice, superficial appearance, and even physical form.

 

[rahullak]

As I see it, it's not simply a revelation of love. It's been said onscreen that the changelings were persecuted by solids in the GQ for many years and that's why they decided that to protect themselves they had to bring 'order' to the galaxy. The only experiences the changelings had ever had with solids were traumatic and completely negative. In their minds, no solid could ever be good, or would ever leave them in peace. If they left any solid alone and uncontrolled, it would come back and subject them to atrocities. Fear on both sides, plain and simple.

Odo's final link with the female changeling sealed the deal. I don't think it was simply Odo's love for Kira but also all of his experiences with the Federation: it was also about showing the changeling that the actions and intent of the Federation have never been about dominating or controlling other species; that some in the Federation were willing to go to great lengths to save Odo knowing fully well that he would prevent the genocide of the founders with the cure thus perpetuating the war until the Federation was defeated; that the solids are no different from them in that different solids have different opinions and motivations and that generalizing to say that all solids only exist to persecute others is just plain wrong; just as changelings do different things (Odo, Laas etc.) so also do solids: good and bad. Clearly, the war was a result of misunderstandings on both sides, and clearly the Federation is not out to destroy the Founders.

 

[Myasishchev]

The key factor is that, by linking with Odo at this stage in his life, she learns that she may have been wrong about solids from the beginning. Remember, the female changeling had always argued that Odo could never truly be happy among the solids because a solid could never truly love a changeling.

Since they last linked, however, Odo had experienced unconditional love, notably in Chimera and Tacking Into the Wind.

That is why Odo had to link with the Founder to convince her. It's not about exchanging information or making a deal, all of which could be done with words. It was about Odo sharing his experiences with her. That's also why Odo knows he can convince her.

This is really what defines Odo's character arc over the course of seven seasons: his desire to fully experience life among the solids is what finally brings an end to the war and saves millions of lives in the process. I think it's pretty clear that Rene Auberjonois performs this scene with his character's love story in mind. His expression and tone of voice correspond to that kind of intense feeling. He's not negociating a cease-fire. He's sharing an intimate experience.

At least that's how I interpret it, though the writers wisely didn't try to be too explicit on this point. Sometimes it's better not to spell things out.

Man, this is a lot less cynical than my "surrender-or-face-genocide" explanation. That's beautiful. I really rather like this interpretation.

 

[flemm]

Odo's final link with the female changeling sealed the deal. I don't think it was simply Odo's love for Kira but also all of his experiences with the Federation: it was also about showing the changeling that the actions and intent of the Federation have never been about dominating or controlling other species; that some in the Federation were willing to go to great lengths to save Odo knowing fully well that he would prevent the genocide of the founders with the cure thus perpetuating the war until the Federation was defeated; that the solids are no different from them in that different solids have different opinions and motivations and that generalizing to say that all solids only exist to persecute others is just plain wrong; just as changelings do different things (Odo, Laas etc.) so also do solids: good and bad. Clearly, the war was a result of misunderstandings on both sides, and clearly the Federation is not out to destroy the Founders.

Well put. I agree that it is the sum total of Odo's experiences that convinces her in the end.

His relationship with Kira is an important part of that, though, since it is the main thing that has changed in Odo's life since he last linked with the Founder at the beginning of season six.

Oddly enough, I always pretty much took it for granted that this is what motivated the Founder's surrender. It just seemed obvious to me from the way that scene is acted. Rene is doing his sensitive, heartfelt Odo expression and voice, not his business/constable voice.

Also, I don't see any other valid explanation. The Federation could have sent Odo down there with the threat of withholding the cure, I suppose, but there's no evidence that they did. (Also, why even send Odo in this case? The threat could be delivered by anyone.) In fact, Odo insists on seeing the Female Changeling. It's his idea, and as I recall Sisko even hesitates before agreeing. It doesn't seem plausible that Odo would come up with the idea of using the lives of his entire race as a bargaining chip on his own, and nothing in his demeanor suggests that is what he is doing.

It's DS9, but it's still Star Trek. That core of optimism is still there. Love conquers all, as Odo tells Laas at the end of Chimera.

 

[Myasishchev]

Yeah, but even assuming the Federation would on its own motion present their enemies with the cure, the question remains whether the Feds would do so over their allies' objections.

Anyway, I think it could be both a carrot and a stick.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If I had the cure I would not have made it available to the founders. I couldn't believe Bashir was so dense as to not get why this was a bad idea.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

If I had the cure I would not have made it available to the founders. I couldn't believe Bashir was so dense as to not get why this was a bad idea.

Bashir is a doctor who takes his medical oaths extremely seriously. Allowing an entire race to die by withholding a cure he could provide? The very idea would be near unthinkable to him. It's monstrous, and I don't see how saving a race from extinction when they've been targeted for genocide could be labeled "a bad idea".

 

[flemm]

Anyway, I think it could be both a carrot and a stick.

Well, you could be right. I'll have to watch WYLB again at some point with this in mind. I pretty much just went with my first impression on this, without really giving a lot of thought to what the other options might be, prior to posting in this thread anyway.

 

[rahullak]

Perhaps the point is that there was no round-table discussion between the allies to decide the fate of the Founders. The disease was used by a rogue agency within the Federation, and Sisko being a representative of the Federation allowed Odo to be cured and in turn beam down to the female changeling. If the Federation were really interested in committing or allowing mass-genocide to continue, they could have stopped Odo, had an elaborate charade of a round-table discussion with allies and then concluded that 'because of non-unanimity on the motion to allow Odo to cure the Founders, said motion is hence stayed or delayed for further discussion'. And then Cardassia would be emptied of life, and the Founders would be obliterated. No-win.

The Federation was risking their last card on one hope: a positive hope: that the Founders would see reason and light and decide to stop the war and end the madness. That itself should be enough to show the Founders that not all solids are intent on mutually-assured destruction. Include all of Odo's other experiences with the Federation, and that should be enough to show the Founders that the Federation was never founded on the principle of persecution but on the principle of tolerance and peace.

 

[Myasishchev]

Flemm--fwiw, I think your interpretation is better backed up by onscreen, direct evidence.

 

[flemm]

The Federation was risking their last card on one hope: a positive hope: that the Founders would see reason and light and decide to stop the war and end the madness. That itself should be enough to show the Founders that not all solids are intent on mutually-assured destruction. Include all of Odo's other experiences with the Federation, and that should be enough to show the Founders that the Federation was never founded on the principle of persecution but on the principle of tolerance and peace.

Well, that is how I've always seen this ending: as a positive, hopeful one, despite all of the violence of the war. I also think it provides Odo with a more satisfying final story arc, since the end of the war is part of his personal journey.

Flemm--fwiw, I think your interpretation is better backed up by onscreen, direct evidence.

As I mull it over now, I don't really recall that much evidence from WYLB behind itself, other than Odo's voice and demeanor. I do think, though, that if you look back on Odo's dealings with the Female Changeling over time there is quite a bit of evidence there. She is very preoccupied with Odo's dealings with the solids and Kira in particular.

 

[rahullak]

If I had the cure I would not have made it available to the founders. I couldn't believe Bashir was so dense as to not get why this was a bad idea.

Bashir is a doctor who takes his medical oaths extremely seriously. Allowing an entire race to die by withholding a cure he could provide? The very idea would be near unthinkable to him. It's monstrous, and I don't see how saving a race from extinction when they've been targeted for genocide could be labeled "a bad idea".

Not even the coldly calculating Q would do such a thing as wipe out an entire race.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If I had the cure I would not have made it available to the founders. I couldn't believe Bashir was so dense as to not get why this was a bad idea.

Bashir is a doctor who takes his medical oaths extremely seriously. Allowing an entire race to die by withholding a cure he could provide? The very idea would be near unthinkable to him. It's monstrous, and I don't see how saving a race from extinction when they've been targeted for genocide could be labeled "a bad idea".

I don't see how the disease is any worse than bombing the whole planet where the vast majority of the goo resides.

It's like it being "inhuman" to beam the tribbles into space but okay to beam them onto the klingon ship. At the end of the day they are all dead, why quibble about methods.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

If I had the cure I would not have made it available to the founders. I couldn't believe Bashir was so dense as to not get why this was a bad idea.

Bashir is a doctor who takes his medical oaths extremely seriously. Allowing an entire race to die by withholding a cure he could provide? The very idea would be near unthinkable to him. It's monstrous, and I don't see how saving a race from extinction when they've been targeted for genocide could be labeled "a bad idea".

I don't see how the disease is any worse than bombing the whole planet where the vast majority of the goo resides.

Neither do I. It's not methods I'm objecting to, it's the genocide. How it happens isn't the issue- being in a situation to save a race from extinction and not doing so is as bad as actively trying to wipe them out yourself, in my opinion.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't think either method is necessarily going to cause extinction. For one thing you still have the hundred sent out with only 2 accounted for so far.

 

[rahullak]

I don't think there's any evidence of how many Founders there are in total, or if it even makes sense to ask that question. Regardless, almost all of the Founders would be wiped out and so would the Great Link. That's genocide and near-extinction from the perspective of changelings. Who knows whether a 100 would be enough to perpetuate the species or to form another Great-Link?

It's despicable to even contemplate justifying genocide by wantonly removing large numbers of a species and letting only a few live and then saying "hey, at least they're not totally extinct", in my humble opinion.

 

[DevilEyes]

It does leave something of a rancid aftertaste, though: why did Odo deliberately cause all those billions of deaths when his surrendering would have ended the suffering at once?

Timo Saloniemi

What are you talking about?

He's suggesting that if all it took to end the war was for Odo to say, "I'm moving back home to be with the Link", then if he did that at the start of the war it would have been over quickly with a minimal loss of life.

Which I absolutely don't believe. The Founders did not start the war to bring Odo back - and if they had, they'd have to be morons, since this would've only hurt their chances; if the Founders had not been warmongering, racist, genocidal assholes, Odo would have loved to go and live with his people! Finding out where he came from and finding people who were like him was what he always longed for - and it would have made him happy, until he found out what they were like and what they were doing.

The reason why the Founders started the war was not for Odo, it was because they hated, feared, mistrusted and despised the solids.

 

[DevilEyes]

flemm and rahullak, great points about Odo/Female Changeling.

I don't think there's any evidence of how many Founders there are in total, or if it even makes sense to ask that question. Regardless, almost all of the Founders would be wiped out and so would the Great Link. That's genocide and near-extinction from the perspective of changelings. Who knows whether a 100 would be enough to perpetuate the species or to form another Great-Link?

It's despicable to even contemplate justifying genocide by wantonly removing large numbers of a species and letting only a few live and then saying "hey, at least they're not totally extinct", in my humble opinion.

Yes, and by that logic, nobody would have ever been convicted of genocide, since nobody in the history of Earth ever killed ALL the members of an ethnic/national/religious group - "only" large parts of them, while others were left alive for some time! Killing "only" all the men and teenage boys in the area, while leaving the women and small children alive is also genocide (Srebrenica massacre). Furthermore, the numbers do not even matter - you can be guilty of genocide whether you murdered 6 million, 600000, 6000, or 60 people; theoretically, you could even kill just one person and still be guilty of genocide, if you did it out of the intent of wiping out the entire group of people.

 

[Myasishchev]

I don't think there's any evidence of how many Founders there are in total, or if it even makes sense to ask that question. Regardless, almost all of the Founders would be wiped out and so would the Great Link. That's genocide and near-extinction from the perspective of changelings. Who knows whether a 100 would be enough to perpetuate the species or to form another Great-Link?

It's despicable to even contemplate justifying genocide by wantonly removing large numbers of a species and letting only a few live and then saying "hey, at least they're not totally extinct", in my humble opinion.

I'm still not convinced that destroying the Great Link is really genocide anyway. They're an integrated mind, and hence morally and legally responsible for the actions of their gooey avatars. I'm surprised Sloan never argued on this line.

theoretically, you could even kill just one person and still be guilty of genocide, if you did it out of the intent of wiping out the entire group of people.

Well, if Chingachgook is waging war on me, I still think it's okay to off him.

 

[rahullak]

I don't think there's any evidence of how many Founders there are in total, or if it even makes sense to ask that question. Regardless, almost all of the Founders would be wiped out and so would the Great Link. That's genocide and near-extinction from the perspective of changelings. Who knows whether a 100 would be enough to perpetuate the species or to form another Great-Link?

It's despicable to even contemplate justifying genocide by wantonly removing large numbers of a species and letting only a few live and then saying "hey, at least they're not totally extinct", in my humble opinion.

I'm still not convinced that destroying the Great Link is really genocide anyway. They're an integrated mind, and hence morally and legally responsible for the actions of their gooey avatars. I'm surprised Sloan never argued on this line.

Hmm...not really. Integrated mind means they can communicate telepathically, which they can't when they're separate. They don't think as one unless they're in the Great-Link. Which still leaves the question of how many changelings there are in the Great-Link. As DevilEyes said, killing even a few changelings is tantamount to genocide.

Sloan never argued on that line, simply because he knows all changelings don't think alike. Odo, Laas, the hundred,and the female changeling...case in point. Which means all changelings are not morally and legally responsible for the actions of their 'gooey avatars'. Granted that at least the majority of the Great-Link must have agreed to go to war. Still doesn't justify genocide. Even Sloan didn't consider it as not genocide; he knew full well what it was, but did it anyway.