WTF moments in TOS...

[Timo]

And kudos for them. Invaders must be driven out, and legality must be observed. Dominion law is unlikely to allow for alien invasions.

I'd want to control the other end.

I can't think of any situation where you would be allowed to. You don't own that land. You can't claim it all by yourself, either. You could try and buy it from the owner if you could figure out who or what it was - but the Feds or the Bajorans or the Klingons didn't find out, and perhaps didn't even try. Which is probably par for the course in interstellar affairs - but in no case establishes "legality" that would be superior to the legality of somebody else's claim to the same real estate.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

And kudos for them. Invaders must be driven out, and legality must be observed. Dominion law is unlikely to allow for alien invasions.

Who's alien invasion? Up until the Bajorans established the colony it was an uninhabited world in unclaimed space. At which point it would have become Bajoran space. So then it would be the Dominion doing the invading.

 

[Timo]

Up until the Bajorans established the colony it was an uninhabited world in unclaimed space.

Only insofar as the uppity Bajorans thought, without bothering to check. If the Dominion says it was theirs, then it was: they are the local rulers, they get to write the laws.

Of course, Bajoran law might say otherwise. Although actually I doubt Bajoran law says anything at all on the issue of colonization, because apparently Bajorans never did any of that stuff before the Occupation. They didn't even colonize their own star system or anything. Hell, after having civilization for hundreds of times longer than mankind, they hadn't even scaled all of their own mountains yet! Clearly not an extrovert or expansionist species...

To recap: the idea that empty space is up for taking is a human-centric one, and there's no reason why the Dominion should respect it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr. Scott]

We all like the unexpected, the cool thing that happens that we never anticipated yet in retrospect makes perfect sense. On the flip side are moments when something happens that makes no sense whatsoever. It can still be entertaining, but it still leaves you shaking your head thinking, "WTF were they thinking?"

It could b a scene, a moment, a plot element or even a whole episode.

One of the biggest WTF! moments in TOS is, of course, "A Piece Of The Action" in its entirety. It's a riot, but the whole premise is totally absurd.

Even if the Horizon left a book behind and the apparently mostly human inhabitants took many ideas from it I seriously doubt their entire culture would have been restructured to imitate one book. What about their original culture and those who didn't wish to change? The '20s era of gangsters didn't happen in a vacuum on Earth--it coexisted with society and cultures evolving for thousands of years. The same would have happened on Iotia.

And where were the law enforcement entities on the planet? Krako seemed to know what being arrested meant, only not in the context Kirk used the word.

The episode seems to imply that the whole planet is culturally contaminated, but I find that highly unlikely. Perhaps more credibly one of the larger populations on the planet has been affected yet even that shouldn't have been so uniformly contaminated as was suggested onscreen.

Again, it's a hilarious story, but none of it makes any sense whatsoever. At best it's just far too simplistic.

And yet this is a story idea that Roddenberry had as far back as when he was first developing the series.

That is actually one of my favorite TOS episodes. It is only other place besides "Alice" (the movie and TV show) that I have ever seen Vic Tayback.

What about a holographic Mel Sharples as a galley cook on DS9?

 

[Christopher]

Kaziarl is right. The wormhole egress in the Gamma Quadrant is nowhere near Dominion territory. Remember, we didn't even begin hearing about the Dominion until Starfleet (and the Ferengi) had been exploring the Gamma Quadrant for more than a year, and there was no direct contact for nearly two years. They're obviously a significant distance from the Idran system.

The galaxy is a very big place. Even a single quadrant of it is a very big place. There's a whole lot more to the Gamma Quadrant than just the Dominion.

And why are we talking about this in a TOS thread?

 

[Kaziarl]

Something about federation law, and how they look at alien law, and take their dealings with the Dominion as an example. I think it started with Miri's second earth though.

Another one, the space amoeba. I don't have to much problem with spaceborn life forms, even the single celled kind. But the size of it made it seem a bit unreasonable.

 

[Timo]

To be sure, the heroes didn't exactly regard it as a single-celled lifeform. It was just their closest analogy for it. Kirk says "single-cell", McCoy says it's a good analogy, and Spock says "virus". Still, it's uncomfortably close to an amoeba in terms of looks...

I guess a creature of open space would have little reason to be compact or structurally strong. Did I understand correctly that the space amoeba moved at FTL speed? Wouldn't it still have been inside the destroyed star system otherwise?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kaziarl]

Well sure, in space size is a largely insignificant thing. But if it was an amoeba, then one would think it would act like one and divide endlessly. Yet there was only the one ever discovered.

As for FTL, thats another thing I kind of look as incredible for biological life forms. Gomtu was one as well, and there were others. I suppose it's conceivably possible for a life form to evolve the ability, much like the birds evolved the ability of flight. But when I say conceivably possible, I mean I'll believe it when I see it.

Oh, and another WTF moment. The Space Hippies. nuff said

 

[GeorgeKirk]

Actually, the duplicate Earth from Miri, goofy as it is, was not a new idea. I remember hearing an episode of an old radio show from the late '40s or early '50s in which an American rocket ship lands on a planet that's an exact duplicate of Earth, except that it's overrun with mutated rats thanks to a nuclear war. The ending of the show posited the idea that all the inhabitable planets in the universe are duplicate Earths.

Another episode-long WTF is the Alternative Factor. It just doesn't make any sense; how could Regular Lazarus and Antimatter Lazarus destroy the whole universe? And why would Starfleet automatically conclude that the universe-wide "blinking out" was a prelude to an invasion?

And from Part 1 of "The Menagerie", has anyone ever noticed that the report on Talos IV that Mendez shows Kirk is signed by Capt. Christopher Pike and "Half-Vulcan Science Officer Spock"? I always thought that was funny.

 

[Timo]

Well sure, in space size is a largely insignificant thing. But if it was an amoeba, then one would think it would act like one and divide endlessly. Yet there was only the one ever discovered.

There'd be plenty of, uh, space, for them to disperse into... And most of it unexplored by mankind. But if they are indeed in the habit of eating star systems, one'd think they would arouse more attention.

Or perhaps they are in competition with other system eaters, and that competition usually takes place outside the systems?

The amoeba our heroes met did hide inside some sort of a spatial pocket, to be sure. Perhaps it takes a starship and some of her special sensors up close to observe such a beast?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

And from Part 1 of "The Menagerie", has anyone ever noticed that the report on Talos IV that Mendez shows Kirk is signed by Capt. Christopher Pike and "Half-Vulcan Science Officer Spock"? I always thought that was funny.

Yup. The body of the text also uses the expression "Half-Vulcan".

Now, one might argue that it's actually relevant - that Pike wants to emphasize that even an officer who was half telepathic was vulnerable to the Talosian mind control. But it does sound funny. Shouldn't Kirk address his "Negress Communications Officer Uhura" and "Slant-Eyed Helmsman Sulu" with their full titles sometimes?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

We all like the unexpected, the cool thing that happens that we never anticipated yet in retrospect makes perfect sense. On the flip side are moments when something happens that makes no sense whatsoever. It can still be entertaining, but it still leaves you shaking your head thinking, "WTF were they thinking?"

It could b a scene, a moment, a plot element or even a whole episode.

One of the biggest WTF! moments in TOS is, of course, "A Piece Of The Action" in its entirety. It's a riot, but the whole premise is totally absurd.

Even if the Horizon left a book behind and the apparently mostly human inhabitants took many ideas from it I seriously doubt their entire culture would have been restructured to imitate one book. What about their original culture and those who didn't wish to change? The '20s era of gangsters didn't happen in a vacuum on Earth--it coexisted with society and cultures evolving for thousands of years. The same would have happened on Iotia.

And where were the law enforcement entities on the planet? Krako seemed to know what being arrested meant, only not in the context Kirk used the word.

The episode seems to imply that the whole planet is culturally contaminated, but I find that highly unlikely. Perhaps more credibly one of the larger populations on the planet has been affected yet even that shouldn't have been so uniformly contaminated as was suggested onscreen.

Again, it's a hilarious story, but none of it makes any sense whatsoever. At best it's just far too simplistic.

And yet this is a story idea that Roddenberry had as far back as when he was first developing the series.

That is actually one of my favorite TOS episodes. It is only other place besides "Alice" (the movie and TV show) that I have ever seen Vic Tayback.

What about a holographic Mel Sharples as a galley cook on DS9?

Referring to Sigma Iotia II as a gangster planet is just following the star trek standard of planets being the same all over. The same as calling Vulcan a desert world or having a jungle, forest, ice planet. That would make Earth a ocean world! Kirk and party beamed to that part of the planet because "The Boss" invited them there by radio. The gangsters could of been present in only one large city, like our New York or Chicago. There's also the question of whether they actual ran the city, although Bela Okmyx may have held the Mayor's office in city hall. Or maybe a tammany hall arrangement.


T'Girl

 

[Christopher]

^No, "A Piece of the Action" made it pretty clear that the whole planet was ruled by these various mobs.

KIRK: They call you The Boss, Mister Oxmyx. The boss of what?
OXMYX: The boss of my territory. I got the biggest in the world. You know, there's one thing wrong with having the biggest. There's always some punk trying to cut you out. That's why you can't be too careful.
KIRK: You're the government here?
OXMYX: What government? Look, I told you. I got the territory and I run it. That's all.
KIRK: But there are other bosses, other territories?
OXMYX: Yeah, sure. Maybe a dozen or so, not counting the small fry, but then they get burned anyway soon as I get around to it.

KIRK: Let me guess. You want, you'll want heaters, and then you'll want troops to teach them how to use them. And then you'll attack the other bosses and take over the whole planet. Then we'll sit down and talk, right?
KRAKO: Wrong! I know Bela. He didn't offer you beans. Now, me, I'm a reasonable man. You give me what I want and I'll cut you in for, say, a third. Skimmed right off the top. Well, what do you think?
KIRK: I got a better idea. This planet has to be united. You know that. Bela knows that. Let's sit down. You, me, Bela. Discuss this whole matter, contact the other bosses, and talk about it like reasonable men.

KIRK: The planet is being taken over by the Federation, but we don't want to come in here and use our muscle, you know what I mean? That ain't subtle. So what we do is we help one guy take over the planet. He pulls the strings, and then we pull his.

KIRK: All right! All right! All right! All right! Now the Federation's taking over whether you like it or not. You people, you've been running this planet like a piecework factory. From now on, it's going to be under one roof.

KIRK: Yes, that's a very good question, Mister Spock. I propose our cut be put into the planetary treasury and used to guide the Iotians into a more ethical system. Despite themselves, they'll be forced to accept conventional responsibilities.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/49.htm

 

[Mytran]

OK, I'm going to say it - Kirk's behaviour in "requiem for methuselah" is nothing short of an aberration - Season Three at its worst.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Going gaga over the doll?

 

[Mytran]

That's about the size of it - he's had his moments before, but this (taking place in the space of about 3 hours!) takes the biscuit.

I prefer to imagine that Kirk got dosed by a hallucinogen shortly after beaming down and imagined the whole thing.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The nomadic plains Indians could not claim the entirety of the midwest as theirs.

As the children could not claim their world (Miri's "Earth") as *theirs*. Their claim to the planet would be worthless without the might to back it up.

By that logic a 98 pound weakling has no right in home ownership because he lacks the might to back it up.

I don't always mean violence. Said 98-pound weakling has the legal right to own a home, they have the title and all necessary legal documents. They can call in the authorities to back that up, if ownership of the home is ever questioned.

As there was no functioning, ordered society on Miri's Earth in this episode, no such framework existed. Those kids could have no rights, because there was no government to ensure them. It was little more than Lord of the Flies down there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

As the children could not claim their world (Miri's "Earth") as *theirs*. Their claim to the planet would be worthless without the might to back it up.

By that logic a 98 pound weakling has no right in home ownership because he lacks the might to back it up.

I don't always mean violence. Said 98-pound weakling has the legal right to own a home, they have the title and all necessary legal documents. They can call in the authorities to back that up, if ownership of the home is ever questioned.

As there was no functioning, ordered society on Miri's Earth in this episode, no such framework existed. Those kids could have no rights, because there was no government to ensure them. It was little more than Lord of the Flies down there.

The UFP is there to provide the framework to create a functioning ordered society for the natives, not to open it up to the homesteaders.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The UFP is there to provide the framework to create a functioning ordered society for the natives, not to open it up to the homesteaders.

Exactly. I never advocated that the planet *should* be open to colonization, only that it *could* be. Obviously the Federation won't do that. But they theoretically could, if they wanted to.

 

[Timo]

Going gaga over the doll?

Or faking it.

After all, getting Flint jealous about his pretty creation turned out to be the exact right way to ensure the delivery of the drug and the completion of the mission. And all the signs were there for Kirk to come to this conclusion. Spock and McCoy pointed out the clues that the heroes were being deliberately stalled, but they didn't draw the right conclusions. Kirk would be the one to instinctually realize that Rayna was the key to everything.

Kirk's actions would be logical, too: dismiss Spock's fugues into trivia, disregard McCoy's fruitless bitching about the lack of progress in getting the medicine, and go straight for the weak point of their all-powerful enemy.

What do we have to show that Kirk wasn't faking it with Rayna? He barely pays attention to the girl once Flint finally gets possessive: he concentrates on driving the old man even further into his own abyss. And when he does succeed, he doesn't go weep on the chick's body or grave. No, he feels sorry for Flint, the man he had to bring down. Not a single word of pity for the shorted-out android.

I'd say this was a classic Kirk stratagem once again, another triumph of instinct over logic in attaining the mission goals in the shortest time possible!

Timo Saloniemi