Wrongs Darker than Death or Night: Paradoxery ahoy

[Tiberius]

Even though you have one quote from someone who wasn't Meru and in fact later stated in three separate scenes that she didn't think that anymore as evidence of such.

Seriously. I've quoted Meru,

And I'm not denying that she wanted to make things better for her family. However, you have never shown that this was the only reason Meru was doing it.

Kira apologizing to Meru,

And the fact that Kira was trying to get back to Dukat's and Meru's quarters to place the bomb had absolutely NOTHING to do with that, did it?

And things can be unfair while still being the truth.

and Kira talking to Sisko about the situation.

Well, yeah, Sisko says Meru did it so as to save her family. But what's he basing this off? Sisko wasn't there, ad he didn't see what was happening. All he has to go from is what Kira told him, and I doubt she'd tell him that her mum had fallen in love with Dukat. It's still too painful for her, so why would she go around telling others?

Or, as literally everyone but you seems to realize, she was faking it so the man who was masterminding the slavery of her race and pillage of her planet wouldn't seek retribution against her and her family.

She's a bloody good actor then. Besides, all she had to do to keep the benefits flowing to her family was get naked and sexy whenever Dukat wanted. She didn't have to do all the stuff she did.

Seriously. Which is actually more likely? That she pretended to be into Dukat to save her and her family, or that she looked at the man who routinely sent her people to be tested on in laboratories and work to death in mines and thought to herself "Well, he seems nice. My family should be fine"?

Why do you think this is a one or the other thing? I'm not saying that Meru wasn't doing it to help her family. What I am saying is that she had some level of affection for Dukat as well.

I never claimed they would be.

My point was:

...DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY'RE BOTH RAPE.

Have you even been reading what I've been saying? Go back and read THIS post.

Except for all the times you said otherwise, outlined in my last post.

I've already explained this, for crying out loud. Why do you refuse to accept what I said?

Well that really depends on the definition we're using.

(No it doesn't. I'm mocking your tendency to define words so they mean what you want them to mean.)

Does what include any kind of manipulation?

The thing Leader Nerd did? Holy hell yes it involved manipulation.

Dukat fucking Meru? I'd argue no, but I'm pretending you have a point about Dukat's 'manipulation' here.

Is it rape if manipulation of any kind is used to get sex?

Geez, I thought I was being quite clear here.

Really now? Read the next quote box. Don't skip over it.

So which is it? Are you wrong then, or are you wrong now?

I meant at that point! At the point where it was more important for him to mess with their minds rather than have sex with them! I actually did specify that he wanted more to mess with their minds in the actual post you quoted. Stop taking quotes out of context.

I have no problem conceding to this, because it's literally not what I've ever argued ever.

I never said he 'violently sexually assaulted' Meru. I said he raped Meru, and 'rape' has a wider meaning than just 'violently sexually assaulted'.

So now you are just ignoring what I have said so you can continue being rude to me.

And this is where you are wrong.

The threats were implied due to the fact that Meru was in the same room as the guy who would have and could have taken away all the 'gifts' given to her and her family without so much as a second thought.

Then Dukat was manipulating EVERYONE. Including the Cardassians on the station.

This is something like four pages of you arguing that Meru hadn't been raped. So kinda.

I have no words for how offensive that is. God you're the rudest person I've ever encountered. You deliberately ignore what I say, and then use your ignorance to claim that I would intentionally post a picture of one of the vilest acts possible?

If you have to be manipulated into it, it's not love.

If you know full well that the man you're sleeping with is in charge of enslaving your race, unless you are severely messed up mentally, it's not love.

Do you have a girlfriend? Are you in love with her? I have no idea about the former, but I would assume the latter would be yes. (If you had a girlfreind you would be ion love with her.) Now, let's say that after five happy years together, she came up and said that she had never really loved you, and she had just been playing with you because she wanted to see if she could trick you into loving her.

Now, in this situation, were you ever in love with her? Genuinely in love?

...what.

Is that unclear to you?

You have a messed up definition of love.

Here's a hint: if the person you're "in love" with isn't real, then your love isn't either. You can't be truly in love with someone who doesn't exist.

The feelings a woman has for a man who is genuinely a nice guy are indistinguishable from the feelings that the same woman would have for him if he was evil and just pretending. If this were not the case, it would be the best lie detector ever.

One would only need to determine if their feelings were genuine in order to know if the person they loved was really a nice person or was just a person pretending.

Or, to put it another way...

Sally loves Bob. Is Bob a nice person, or is he just pretending?

According to your logic, the answer is, "Sally's feelings are genuine, therefore Bob can't possible be a meanie who's just pretending!"

And this isn't even going into the outright absurdity of a Jew being in love with Hitler. I know you don't think that's an apt analogy, but it absolutely is.

I'm sorry, when did I mention Jews being in love with Hitler. I've in fact argued that the Dukat situation is NOT the same, as Dukat had an interest in getting the Bajorans to love him.

Comfort woman.

"I'm sorry, Meru, but you're a comfort woman and I must have sex with you. it's the rules."

Yeah, right. There's nothing anywhere that says that if a comfort woman is presented, you MUST have sex with her.

I very much doubt that.

Given that you have ignored what I have said, taken quotes out of context, and been generally rude I don't really care about your opinion.

I give the sentence a D.

First of all, you failed to define the words, and that was really what I was looking for.

Manipulate: To act in such a manner as to produce a certain desired outcome.

Genuinely: Sincere, real, as opposed to false or imitated.

How's that?

Secondly, did your girlfriend have a history of manipulating you into thinking bad things had happened? Because I'm guessing that if you were aware of said history, you would have been less concerned than if you were unaware of said history.

Who said it was my girlfriend who was manipulating me. Some person I know could come up, say, "Hey, your girlfriend's been in a really bad crash! They put her into an ambulance, you;d better get to the hospital straight away. She looked really bad." That would be manipulation of me that caused me to have genuine concerns for her safety, wouldn't it?

Too bad you didn't go for apiary. That would have brought you up to a solid C, if used correctly.

I was MANIPULATED into thinking my girlfriend had been seriously injured after falling into an APIARY and I was GENUINELY concerned for her safety.

Five points off for spelling. D-

Maybe you are the one who needs to read the dictionary.

Then you should educate yourself so that you know the proper meanings of the words you choose to use.

You're right. I'm now going to go and look up every single word I know so as not to make this mistake again.,

READ WHAT YOU WRITE.

Yeah, I did. Dukat wanted the Bajorans to love him, and he was insane.

So what?

But kidnapping and then raping that person is still rape.

Yeah. it's rape because they were raped.

Wait. That wasn't even Kira in the above quote?

Holy shit.

YOU'RE TAKING THE WORDS OF A DEMONSTRABLY INSANE VILLAIN AS GOSPEL!

He was hallucinating! He was wondering why the people he enslaved and killed wouldn't love him! He is the VERY DEFINITION of the unreliable narrator!

Now, if this isn't proof you aren't reading what I say, I don't know what is.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS KIRA!!!

I said - QUITE CLEARLY - that it was Dukat's mind manifesting as Kira.

DUKAT'S MIND. His subconscious mind. So if Dukat's subconscious mind is saying that he wanted the Bajorans to love him, it seems to me that it's the truth, as a person has no control over their subconscious mind and thus can't make it lie.

Actually, this has been annoying me. Tiberius, read this:

...

I want you to respond to each of these quotes from the episode and explain how they don't prove you wrong.

Keep in mind the last quote, Kira apologizing to Meru, came after the scene with Kira accusing Meru of being in love with Dukat.

I already have, but I'll say it again here for the sake of completeness.

SISKO
She did what she had to do to save her family -- to save you.

KIRA
It still doesn't make it right.

SISKO
Maybe not, but it was her decision to make.

Sisko is only going off what Kira has told him. Sisko doesn't know what happened. As I said before, it's unlikely that Kira would have given Sisko the whole story given how personal it was to her.

And even if he is right, it does not follow that this is the ONLY reason that Meru did what she did.

MERU
I haven't forgotten him. What do
you expect me to do -- kick and
bite every time Dukat comes near
me? How would that help Taban or
the children?

Again, there's nothing to show that this was the ONLY reason that Meru was doing it.

Now, if you are claiming that I have said that helping her family never motivated Meru at all, feel free to quote me. But I think you have to realise that a person can have several motivations for doing something.

KIRA
I came because I owe you an
apology. Those things I said...
they were unfair.

Yeah, she was doing that to get into a position where she could plant a bomb.

Which is bullshit. He didn't. He wanted power over them, not for them to love him. If he had wanted them to love him, he would have done things like, not kidnap and enslave their citizenry.

How can you say that when even Dukat's mind manifesting itself as Kira can see it? "Your desperate need to win the love of the Bajoran people. You've never understood why we don't appreciate you."

Because that was obviously Dukat lying to himself -- in fact, it was part of Dukat's journey to finally admitting that he hated the Bajorans and wanted them all exterminated.

Given that it was Dukat's SUBCONSCIOUS mind, how can you claim that he was able to lie? If it's his subconscious mind, then he really believes it.

Sexually propositioning someone whom you have kidnapped is not.

As I've said before, I do not believe that Dukat ever said to Meru, "I don't care if you say no, I'm gonna have sex with you anyway." Dukat's rape of Meru was not him forcing himself on her when she said no. It was him manipulating her into saying yes.

Which means it's still rape, and therefore not morally ambiguous as you initially claimed.

My claim that it was a grey area was directed towards the claim that what Dukat did to meru was the same as what he did to the Bajoran woman in Covenant.

And I've never claimed that what Dukat did to Meru was moraly ambiguous. I was quite clear saying many times that it was horrible, terrible and unforgivable. If you choose to interpret that as me saying it is morally ambiguous, then I don't know what to say.

 

[Sci]

Then Dukat was manipulating EVERYONE. Including the Cardassians on the station.

Well, fucking duh. Do you think dictators stay in power by being open and honest with everyone? No, they stay in power by playing mind games and manipulating everyone around them.

And I've never claimed that what Dukat did to Meru was moraly ambiguous. I was quite clear saying many times that it was horrible, terrible and unforgivable. If you choose to interpret that as me saying it is morally ambiguous, then I don't know what to say.

You called it a "grey area." I really don't know how you could have so fundamentally failed to express yourself if you didn't mean to say it was a morally ambiguous thing.

But rape is rape is rape is rape.

 

[Paradon]

I think it's morally depraved and perverted by human standard, but not rape IMO...

 

[Tiberius]

You called it a "grey area." I really don't know how you could have so fundamentally failed to express yourself if you didn't mean to say it was a morally ambiguous thing.

But rape is rape is rape is rape.

I see I have to belt you about the head and body with THIS.

 

[CoveTom]

I don't know whether it's proper forum etiquette or not to point to a previous post of mine and ask for a reply, but I am curious, Tiberius, as to your thoughts on what I had to say here.

 

[Tiberius]

Does "duress" mean the same thing as "tricking someone into doing it"? No, obviously not, so I agree with you on that. But no one is saying that Dukat tricked Meru into it. It's not like he fooled her. She knew that she was about to have sex with him.

Dukat didn't trick Meru into having sex with him. He tricked her by pretending to be as nice a guy as he could be and getting her to believe it. When a monster makes someone believe, "Hey, maybe they aren't that bad after all," then that certainly is tricking.

The issue is whether his acts constitute rape. And the definition that you provided says compelling someone by physical force or duress constitutes rape. The "or" would seem to pretty definitively suggest that duress is different from physical force.

Physical force - pushing someone through the door.

Duress - "Go through the door or I'll shoot you."

So, to be sure, let's go back to the oracle that is dictionary.com and take a look at the definition of "duress":

1. compulsion by threat or force; coercion; constraint.
2. Law . such constraint or coercion as will render void a contract or other legal act entered or performed under its influence.
3. forcible restraint, especially imprisonment.

Obviously, the second definition is not relevant to this discussion, but both the first and the third would seem to be.

Agreed.

Look at the first one. It says compulsion by threat or force. It doesn't say that there has to force for it to be duress. Just a threat. And then further on, it says "coercion."

Surely we can agree that there is such a thing as non-violent coercion and non-violent threats. If I am your boss and I demand you have sex with me, and I say that I will fire you if you do not, have I not both threatened and coerced you? And yet, there is no violence stated or implied in that. Firing you is, in fact, completely non-violent. It involves nothing more than a verbal act or signing a piece of paper. But it is still duress by this definition, as it involves both a threat and coercion.

I see what you mean, but do you see the difference of degrees? Threatening to fire someone is not quite the same thing as threatening to kill someone.

In that situation, I might say to myself, "Well, I was planning on quitting anyway, so I'm going to say no." But if the threat had been one of death rather than unemployment, I certainly wouldn't say no!

Lastly, I think the third definition is worth mentioning in this context as well. "Forcible restraint, especially imprisonment." Well, Dukat kidnapped Meru. And at the time they had sex, she was still a prisoner of his. So that would seem to suggest duress as well.

I'm not denying that Meru was a prisoner. And I'm not denying that this would have had an influence on how she felt. But I was talking about Dukat's deception of Meru, and how he tricked her into thinking he was something that he was not. And we've both agreed that this deception is not duress.

It seems to me that on multiple counts, Dukat's actions meet the standard of duress as indicated by the definition above and, if they do, then they would also meet the definition of rape as provided by the same source.

I agree.

All I've been saying is that you can't claim it is the same as someone who beats a woman so she will have sex with him, or someone who threatens to harm her family so she will have sex with him.

As I;ve said many times before, Dukat always was most interested in getting the Bajorans to love him, including Meru. He knew he wouldn't get that love from Meru if he was belting her while demanding that she sleep with him, nor would he get that love from her if he said, "Love me or I'll kill your family." In fact, I can easily see him saying, "Meru, I want you to know that I will never pressure you into doing something that you do not want to do, and I can assure you that no action you take could take away the benefits your family are receiving."

 

[Tiberius]

Wait...

So paradon says the exact same thing that you guys thought I did, and yet I get torn apart for a week and no one says a word about his post?

Geez, what is that?

 

[Elias Vaughn]

I was taking a break from dealing with stupid.

Maybe later.

 

[Sci]

^^ I'd given up on this thread too.

 

[Rojixus]

Are you people still on the rape debate?! Let it go!

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Two of us were trying.