Spoilers WRATH OF KHAN v. INTO DARKNESS deaths

[fireproof78]

Yeah that doesn't worry me. I think you can look at those scenes and have both Spock dead or Spock's dead but may come back, but at the end he is definitely dead. Whatever happens next, is something else and finally collapses into being as Trek III but that's it's own thing. I think people are right to be wary of people treating death lightly in fiction but I don't mind it so much here, maybe because it had all been done before I was even watching Trek

I think this is fair and I probably wouldn't mind the death scene if it didn't duplicate TWOK's scenes so much. I just think they should have come up with something new, but that's just my opinion. I am someone who's idea of Trek is the Trek films, at least 2 - 6. I grew up with them and don't have any real attachment to TOS.

Let me take a little bit of time to explain my point of view on this. In my opinion, the fact that they used TWOK's setting and lines does not bother me, because the journey there was the important part. I am fully invested in nu-Kirk and nu-Spock in a way that I haven't been about film characters in a while, so the idea that they used lines some how cheapens the scene rings hollow to me.

Why?

Because context matters. This discussion has pulled the two scenes out and stacked them next to each other and judge them without any dealing with the context of the films. Which, given the nature of the film medium, is rather short changing to the themes and plots and character development that is occurring throughout the film and in the preceding.

To give an example, when I was younger, I only saw the last part of the film, "A Few Good Men." Now, for those familiar with the film, the final scene is among the most iconic with Tom Cruise demanding that Jack Nicholson tell him the truth. However, if you haven't seen the entire film then you fail to recognize the dynamic change that Cruise's character, Danny Kaffee, when he actually is challenging Nicholson's character, Colonel Jessup. Kaffee has to grow up and face the possibility of losing the case if his questions fail to get the truth. There is a tension there as Kaffee weighs the risks and benefits of trying to get the truth versus playing it safe.

The scene is a small snapshot of the larger character growth and the culmination of the entire film's larger theme. In the same way, TWOK or STID's death scenes can't be viewed through just their similarities. Spock and nu-Kirk's choices are influenced by the themes of the film and their character growths through the film.

I see it as similar to Colonel Chang quoting Shakespeare or Khan quoting Milton. The context of the scene and the character growth that comes from it are the more important part of the story, not all the similarities.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

the final scene is among the most iconic with Tom Cruise demanding that Jack Nicklaus tell him the truth.

Nicholson. Jack Nicklaus was the golfer.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I was rather sorry to see NuPike die, so attachment to the characters was not what made Kirk's demise in STID less effective than Spock's in TWoK.

I thought Pike's death worked well in the movie, and it elicited the response it was intended to. Part of the difference, though, is out-of-universe: I could see them actually killing off Greenwood's character, whereas I could not see them doing the next movie without Pine's Kirk.

(And, well, Pike didn't die during a bad pastiche of TWOK.)

Kirk's death in ID is no different than all those main character "deaths" that are reversed by the end of the episode in TOS. Which is a (justifiably) fairly criticized part of the show. That's one aspect of TOS you shouldn't be including in your big budget movies, IMHO.

the final scene is among the most iconic with Tom Cruise demanding that Jack Nicklaus tell him the truth.

Nicholson. Jack Nicklaus was the golfer.

Cruise: I want the two iron!
Nicklaus: You can't handle the two iron!!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Kirk's death in ID is no different than all those main character "deaths" that are reversed by the end of the episode in TOS. Which is a (justifiably) fairly criticized part of the show. That's one aspect of TOS you shouldn't be including in your big budget movies, IMHO.

Agreed. No one's clamoring for a big-screen version of Scotty getting "killed" by Nomad.

 

[Pauln6]

Agreed. No one's clamoring for a big-screen version of Scotty getting "killed" by Nomad.

just starting the change.org petition now.

 

[fireproof78]

Nicholson. Jack Nicklaus was the golfer.

I don't know why but I always get the two mixed up. Thank you

 

[JonnyQuest037]

just starting the change.org petition now.

That sounds like a great use of your time.

 

[eyeresist]

I'd probably be more on board with nuKirk's revival if it wasn't set up in advance so damn hard. That scene between Kirk and Khan where Kirk just suddenly asks what Bones is doing with a dead tribble is painful.

Surely Kirk's resurrection would be worse if there hadn't been a set-up? The tribble and Khan's blood at least provides a justification; otherwise Kirk's recovery would just be due to magic.

Whether or not NuKirk came back at the end of STID or in the sequel, the problem wasn't the resurrection, it was the death scene itself. TWOK's death scene is powerful because Spock is stoic in the face of death, while Kirk plays out the emotions that Spock can only hint at. Flipping that dynamic doesn't work, mostly because of Pine's performance: yes, he's supposed to be the stoic one this time, but in fact he seems to show no emotion, not even pain. He just looks bloated. Pine's emotional flatness is the reason we don't buy Spock's reaction.

Well, Nemesis and X3 both have a LOT more problems than just the character deaths. I didn't mind the deaths in either TWOK or Serenity because both of those movies were very well done.

Actually, the deaths in Serenity really pissed me off. They seemed gratuitous and had no pay-off. NEM ultimately had a better payoff for Data's death (although the actual moment was poorly staged), because he died for reasons, and the film then took time to deal with people's reactions.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Surely Kirk's resurrection would be worse if there hadn't been a set-up? The tribble and Khan's blood at least provides a justification; otherwise Kirk's recovery would just be due to magic.

And instead it was just due to BS magic that they set up a couple of scenes before.

Whether or not NuKirk came back at the end of STID or in the sequel, the problem wasn't the resurrection, it was the death scene itself. [...] Pine's emotional flatness is the reason we don't buy Spock's reaction.

I'd say that it also fell flat because we'd already seen Quinto's Spock lose his emotional control a few times by that point. The more often they choose to do that, the less impact it has each time.

Actually, the deaths in Serenity really pissed me off. They seemed gratuitous and had no pay-off. NEM ultimately had a better payoff for Data's death (although the actual moment was poorly staged), because he died for reasons, and the film then took time to deal with people's reactions.

Well, all I can say is that I disagree and that the deaths in Serenity worked much better for me personally, but hey, that's what makes horse races.

...That is why they have horse races, right? Because two strangers disagree about how well the deaths were handled in science fiction films from the early 2000s? I'm almost positive that was the reason behind the last Kentucky Derby. But I'm not a horse racing guy, so I may have picked up a few faulty ideas on this.

 

[fireproof78]

I followed all of that right up until the horse racing. Then it went off the track.

Personally, I hate the deaths in Serenity and they still work for me in a way that is meaningful to the overall story. So, while I hate the scenes themselves, and feel that they are gratuitous, I can see something that almost makes them work. Data's death was just stupid.

As for STID, I personally feel like it works for all the reasons that seem to bother people. I like Pine's performance just fine, because he is really in a strangely unimaginable place as a character. Spock's POV is actually more understandable as he struggles against another devastating loss in his life. Maybe it's because I identify more with Spock, maybe because I can identify with the characters more than the other situations.

I think that STID continues character arcs and builds upon the last movies and explores the emotions more. As much as TWOK is a well put together film, I feel like the character arcs are more interesting and dynamic in STID.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I followed all of that right up until the horse racing. Then it went off the track.

Joke.

 

[Tosk]

Surely Kirk's resurrection would be worse if there hadn't been a set-up? The tribble and Khan's blood at least provides a justification; otherwise Kirk's recovery would just be due to magic.

It's the way they set it up that I have the problem with, not the setting up in and of itself. Kirk suddenly changing the subject calls far too much attention to it, instead of having the tests be run "off to the side". We already know that there is something going on with Khan's blood within the first few minutes of the film, so it's already set up for a more subtle payoff.

 

[eyeresist]

It's the way they set it up that I have the problem with, not the setting up in and of itself. Kirk suddenly changing the subject calls far too much attention to it, instead of having the tests be run "off to the side". We already know that there is something going on with Khan's blood within the first few minutes of the film, so it's already set up for a more subtle payoff.

Although still a lot of people say it "came out of nowhere."

 

[Tosk]

I can't speak for them, but maybe they mean came from nowhere in terms of Prime Khan never exhibiting or discussing this ability? If they mean within the context of STID, they're wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

Joke.

Which is why I made a track joke.

 

[publiusr]

It wasn't just Spock's death--but that of Preston. Science Fiction had been largely innocent until ST II.
There was a sense of sadness all across the film that is just more mature.

Lots of action, deaths--we feel numb to loss today.

 

[Terok Nor]

NuKirk's death scene was a pointless embarrassment. We all knew he wouldn't be staying dead but that scream from Spock was a toe curler. The best way around the comparison between TWOK's death scene and ID's death scene would have been to not "pay homage" to the original scene in the first place.

Pike's death was neither shocking nor unexpected but at least it stuck. The problem is Pike was not a member of the core group. An even bigger problem is that there is no core group. Apart from Kirk, Spock and McCoy and Kirk, Spock and Uhura there are no character dynamics between the NuCrew. Chekov and Sulu are glorified extras with little personality and Scotty is an enormous irritant who interacts more with that little creature than he does with anyone else. I feel no sense of "family" between the NuCrew the way I did when Spock died in TWOK and that's because there have only been 2 movies, neither of which did much to endear me personally to the characters. They haven't had the benefit of 79 episodes together or a particularly enthralling script as of yet. Think how much better Kirk's death scene (without the TWOK homage) might have been 6 movies down the road when the series is coming to a close and there's a real chance NuKirk may actually stay dead.

The first time I realized I cared about the TNG crew was when Tasha Yar died towards the end of Season One. I was indifferent to the character of Tasha but I felt the sense of loss from the other characters and from there on in as the series improved season by season they became important to me. There just hasn't been enough time or enough character interaction between the NuCrew to "earn" that TWOK homage.

 

[eyeresist]

An even bigger problem is that there is no core group. Apart from Kirk, Spock and McCoy and Kirk, Spock and Uhura there are no character dynamics between the NuCrew. Chekov and Sulu are glorified extras with little personality and Scotty is an enormous irritant

Sounds like TOS to me.

 

[Amaris]

I think both films worked regarding their respective deaths. I was devastated when I saw Spock die in TWOK. I didn't want Spock to die, yet there it was on screen. When Kirk died in STID, I was surprised. I was like "holy shit, they actually did it!" Yes, McCoy revived him, but we've seen instances of that all through TOS. In Amok Time, for instance, Kirk appeared to be dead, only for it to be a compound McCoy used to cause him to imitate the appearance of death. So I figured McCoy was definitely going to revive Kirk in STID, I just wanted to see how they went about it. For me, the end result was more than fine.

 

[publiusr]

You had a mass casualty event at the end of Into Darkness that barely got addressed.