Wow, the deleted NEM scene with Picard and Data

[Cyrus]

^^That very well may be true, but it is now 6 years later and we're mostly talking about DVD versions so in the present context, the movie would probably be helped.

Yeah, as I said adding these scenes back is completely appropriate for a special edition version of the movie. Pacing problems become much less of an issue if you have already seen the movie. That's the strategy they used for LOTR movies, if a scene was cut purely for pacing reasons then it was added back for the longer version.

 

[idreamedmusic]

Data/Picard scene was nice but it was the right decision to cut it. Even the final cut of the movie has pacing problems with too many talky scenes back to back, adding this and some of the other cut scenes would have made it worse. It's OK to add scenes like this back for special editions (like they did for LOTR movies), but for the theatrical version it was the right decision to cut the scene.

I sorta disagree.
Yes, there were too many talky scenes, but mainly between main and secondary characters (e.g. Shinzon). The Data/Picard scene does seem rather vital considering the events of the film and would have added a nice element of foreshadowing as well as giving the ultimate events some deeper meaning. Same goes for scenes mourning Data's death, as that would have lent that whole debacle at least some gravitas.

In any event, the editing of the movie and exclusion of some of these character moments were yet another failure on the movie's part. But then, at this point, Action!Picard apparently was the way to go.

 

[Cyrus]

If you want to add more talky scenes and remove the so called Action!Picard scene then the pacing of the movie would have been a total disaster (not that it was any good as is). It would have been mostly one talky scene after another until the final battle.

I guess I am in extreme minority that I loved the dune buggy sequence. Not only it added the needed action between the talky scenes, but also the super brightness of that sequence contrasted nicely with the darkness that the rest of the movie was filmed in. The dune buggy sequence was also well choreographed, directed and edited, helping to make Nemesis one of the most cinematic of Trek movies. That was something that Baird with his years of experience as an editor was able to contribute.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
And I find myself asking this question yet again: Why does Star Trek need action scenes—especially really bad ones?

 

[Cyrus]

I would say Trek movies do need action scenes. Not for me personally (TMP being my favorite Trek movie is evidence of that). But the general public considers Star Trek sci-fi adventure, so some action is expected, not at the Star Wars or Indiana Jones level, but a decent amount of action is expected.

On the Trek TV shows they have the luxury of doing different kind of stories, so they can do both action and non-action stuff. With theatrical movies, aiming more at the general audiences, and needing something that looks good on big screen, the action oriented stories are more likely candidates.

 

[CorporalClegg]

But, as it is TMP is still the most successful movie of the franchise followed by TVH which is, in itself, very, very light on the action.

Trek as “sci-fi action” is a misnomer created and nourished by Harvey and Nicky and ultimately sustained by the good ol’ Bermanator.

It’s 100% misconception and myth. The suits have bought into it, and now the fans have too.

A shitty action movie is a shitty action movie and people will stay away. (See: topic.) On the other hand, quality science fiction is quality science fiction and people will come to see it whether it has Kewl Xplozions or not.

 

[guardian]

^^THP is the most sucessful because it sold more tickets than any other???

It sold more tickets because it was right after Star Wars came out, people were thinking it was the next great sci-fi thing to hit the big screen and there was 10 years of pent up Trek fandom waiting to explode. Also there were more non-trekkers who saw it early in its run than any other Trek movie because they thought it would an event movie.
I ended up seeing it six times in the theater (more than any other movie ever for me) & I know it's not a great movie or even a very good one.
TMP wasn't anywhere near the best trek movie and it nearly killed the franchise--no matter how many tickets it sold.

By the way, I like TMP and own it and watch it & respect that it didn't have a big explosion at the end like Star Wars did, but it has lots of other flaws the worst of which is the lack of character interplay Trek fans expect.
I agree with Cyrus, in this era, a big event sci-fi movie needs action to be a hit. We've seen hundreds of hours of trek that were cerebral and light on action, but a movie event can't go that way anymore.

 

[Nebusj]

TMP wasn't anywhere near the best trek movie and it nearly killed the franchise--no matter how many tickets it sold.

So, it wasn't actually successful or popular, it just sold a whole lot of tickets, more than all but one other film of 1979, and a lot of people went to see it, and that's what's fooled us into thinking it was successful or popular. Got it.

 

[HoundDog]

I agree, it is a great scene that should have stayed in the final cut. I don't think that it would have disturbed the pacing of the movie much - TNG was always a little talky and keeping this scene (and some other) would have given the movie more of a TNG feel.

Unfortunately, the producer decided to make a space-action-adventure-film.

 

[guardian]

TMP wasn't anywhere near the best trek movie and it nearly killed the franchise--no matter how many tickets it sold.

So, it wasn't actually successful or popular, it just sold a whole lot of tickets, more than all but one other film of 1979, and a lot of people went to see it, and that's what's fooled us into thinking it was successful or popular. Got it.

No you clearly don't or don't want to.

Tickets sold doesn't mean a movie is good

Armageedon & ID4 both were huge hits and box office winners their years.

They are not considered great or even good movies despite the money they made.

You implied that Trek movies don't need action be sucessful & used TMP as an example. It made $82 million. TWOK made $78 and is a better movie by the estimate of probably 80% of trek fans.

TMP made a lot of early money due to hype and buzz and also because movies played for many weeks in those days. Also a lot of us diehards thought that would be that last new Trek we would ever see. TWOK made nearly as much money in a much shorter theatrical run.
Everybody involved with TMP knew & admitted that it nearly killed the series. TWOK saved it & moved it forward.

Somewho says that want a non-action Trek movie is really saying 'I want a Trek movie the way I want it and I don't care if they make another after that "--- Which guaranteed---they f*cking wouldn't if people showed up and it lacked action in 2009.

TOS WAS an action-adventure series, but didn't have the budget to have all that much of it, because of the genre expenses.

I love drama episodes but they would never work for a movie and would kill any future movies.
A Trek 'drama' would still cost a fortune because of the sci-fi setting it's in & nobody would go to repeat viewings of a Trek drama even if it was of high quality & disc sales would suffer too.

Try living with a well done action Trek movie with hopefully lots of nice character interaction.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I'd rather have the Data/ Picard scene than the pointless Shinzon "You are not a woman!" scene

^ Agreed.

 

[guardian]

I guess I am in the minority, in that i don't see the need, in the home video version, of balancing the talk & the action.
i know that the 'buggy chase' was in there so the 1st third of the movie would have action--but I just thought the scene sucked.

I don't think they should have to pull out the Shinzon/Donatra scene to add the Picard/Data scene. When I'm at home I watch a movie when I'm not in a hurry for it to end. Give me the option of seeing all the scenes even if you have multiple 'talky' scenes in a row. I was glad they let the Shinzon character have several scenes with just Romulans--I even like the "In darkness there is strength" scene.

I liked almost all the Nemesis deleted scenes--except the wesley one because it felt added on & unneccessary. Like using the movie as a convient place to put a period on the Wesley characters journey.

Another thing about the deleted scenes from the DVD----

Because those scenes were cut out ENTIRELY, they were never fine-tuned in editing. Had they been included, most of them would have been shortened and made more 'snappy' Even the fine Picard/Data scene was too slowly paced.
So if they had added all those scenes back in, they wouldn't have extended the movie by the full 20 minutes they run in the Del. scenes section but perhaps only 14 minutes bringing the movie to 130 minutes instead of 116.

As I said earlier, this 'fine-tuning' of existing 'currently in the movie' scenes did already cut about 20 minutes from the 'assembly cut'
Whether you like the movie or not, the scale was fairly big & ambitous--combine the wrap-up for these characters AND have a huge action set-piece ending. Craming that into 116 minutes was fatal.
Oh and letting Frakes direct it would have helped.