In the novelization it's said that Khan used eels on the Reliant's engineering crew, but the rest of them were marooned on Ceti Alpha V.
Wouldn't Reliant already have all the Genesis data and materials.
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In the novelization it's said that Khan used eels on the Reliant's engineering crew, but the rest of them were marooned on Ceti Alpha V.
All right, I kind of started this off as a lighthearted thread as how Spock would act when Khan demanded all the info on Genesis project from the Enterprise when they were are already on the ship that is spearheading it from the Federation's side. I expected some "Well it could be explained by thus and thus...." But some of this stuff is just silly.
First the statement that the Reliant is just some tool looking for a lifeless planet and doesn't have any real information. That is so ridiculous, even though the project is headed by a seemingly independent science team it is CLEAR AS CRYSTAL that Starfleet is a very involved partner in this project and it's potential. I don't know how many starships are in the fleet at this time but they seem like pretty valuable assets (unlike in DS9 when they seem to have thousands and thousands of them) and yet Starfleet has tasked the Reliant with the sole purpose of finding a planet suitable for the project to be used on, and it has been trying to so for quite a while now.
I find it impossible Starfleet would put the Reliant at the science team's disposal if all they were told "Well we're working on something kind of big, that's all we can really share". Starfleet would want to know every single damn detail before they feel it was worth releasing such an asset.
It is also absolutely ridiculous to think Starfleet wouldn't want a copy of every piece of information and data stored in the ship they've loaned to these scientists. And given the distrust and somewhat antagonist relationship Starfleet and the Genesis team seem to have towards each other, Starfleet would definently want one of their own men to have full knowledge of the project, in case the science tries to pull some crap and stonewall them at some point.
Since no Admiral seems to be assigned to the project to oversee it, it makes sense that Terrell and possibly Chekov would be the ones that would know as much as Starfleet wanted them to find out. I'm not saying some cook would know, but it's ridiculous to believe the command crew of the ship that is spearheading the project from Starfleet's end would have little knowledge.
And the film itself also reveals Terrell knew almost everything because it's clear that (off camera) he told Khan detailed information about it, otherwise how would Khan know and why would he be so interested in it to detour to Regula. If all Terrell said "Oh it's this Starfeet thing called Genesis I don't know much about other than were supposed to find a lifeless planet" Khan would probably just have shrugged it off and headed right for the Enterprise.
But its obvious Khan not only knew about the project but also how important and powerful it could be, hence his extreme interest in it. Information he could have only gotten from Terrell or Chekov. So they clearly were not just a tool in the project.
When Khan tells Chekov to tell Carol to transfer all materials and information to Reliant...He was talking about TORPEDO ITSELF, not just more data so he could learn more. Which Carol obviously didn't do.
Logic would dictate that Khan between controlling Terrell, Chekov the Reliant itself and having been to Regula I would pretty much have gathered up all the information he already, short of the torpedo itself, had access to pretty much there was to offer. What possible additional information could the Enterprise, a ship that was billions of miles away on a training mission before the emergency arose, possibly have? Kirk himself didn't seem to know all that much. When Spock asked the status of the project Kirk could only make an educated guess.
I could accept answers like maybe one of Reliant's crew erased vital information before Khan took total control. Or that Khan in his blindness towards everything non Kirk just refused to accept he had access to all there was to know and the Enterprise MUST have more info because Kirk is just that damn important.
But to say "Oh Reliant was just tooling around with no real idea of what was going on, and therefore didn't have the info in its memory banks" is just unbelieveable. And Khan and his "superior intellect" should have realized that he already had the motherload. But prehaps his focus on Kirk overwhelmed his intellect and, thinking Kirk knew even more, he allowed the Enterprise to transmit info that lowered Reliant's shields (Although Enterprise might have been able to do that anyway, I don't know if Reliant had to actively accept the transmission or not)
First the statement that the Reliant is just some tool looking for a lifeless planet and doesn't have any real information. That is so ridiculous, even though the project is headed by a seemingly independent science team it is CLEAR AS CRYSTAL that Starfleet is a very involved partner in this project and it's potential. I don't know how many starships are in the fleet at this time but they seem like pretty valuable assets (unlike in DS9 when they seem to have thousands and thousands of them) and yet Starfleet has tasked the Reliant with the sole purpose of finding a planet suitable for the project to be used on, and it has been trying to so for quite a while now.
I find it impossible Starfleet would put the Reliant at the science team's disposal if all they were told "Well we're working on something kind of big, that's all we can really share". Starfleet would want to know every single damn detail before they feel it was worth releasing such an asset.
It is also absolutely ridiculous to think Starfleet wouldn't want a copy of every piece of information and data stored in the ship they've loaned to these scientists. And given the distrust and somewhat antagonist relationship Starfleet and the Genesis team seem to have towards each other, Starfleet would definently want one of their own men to have full knowledge of the project, in case the science tries to pull some crap and stonewall them at some point.
Since no Admiral seems to be assigned to the project to oversee it, it makes sense that Terrell and possibly Chekov would be the ones that would know as much as Starfleet wanted them to find out. I'm not saying some cook would know, but it's ridiculous to believe the command crew of the ship that is spearheading the project from Starfleet's end would have little knowledge.
And the film itself also reveals Terrell knew almost everything because it's clear that (off camera) he told Khan detailed information about it, otherwise how would Khan know and why would he be so interested in it to detour to Regula. If all Terrell said "Oh it's this Starfeet thing called Genesis I don't know much about other than were supposed to find a lifeless planet" Khan would probably just have shrugged it off and headed right for the Enterprise.
But its obvious Khan not only knew about the project but also how important and powerful it could be, hence his extreme interest in it. Information he could have only gotten from Terrell or Chekov. So they clearly were not just a tool in the project.
When Khan tells Chekov to tell Carol to transfer all materials and information to Reliant...He was talking about TORPEDO ITSELF, not just more data so he could learn more. Which Carol obviously didn't do.
Logic would dictate that Khan between controlling Terrell, Chekov the Reliant itself and having been to Regula I would pretty much have gathered up all the information he already, short of the torpedo itself, had access to pretty much there was to offer. What possible additional information could the Enterprise, a ship that was billions of miles away on a training mission before the emergency arose, possibly have? Kirk himself didn't seem to know all that much. When Spock asked the status of the project Kirk could only make an educated guess.
I could accept answers like maybe one of Reliant's crew erased vital information before Khan took total control. Or that Khan in his blindness towards everything non Kirk just refused to accept he had access to all there was to know and the Enterprise MUST have more info because Kirk is just that damn important.
But to say "Oh Reliant was just tooling around with no real idea of what was going on, and therefore didn't have the info in its memory banks" is just unbelieveable. And Khan and his "superior intellect" should have realized that he already had the motherload. But prehaps his focus on Kirk overwhelmed his intellect and, thinking Kirk knew even more, he allowed the Enterprise to transmit info that lowered Reliant's shields (Although Enterprise might have been able to do that anyway, I don't know if Reliant had to actively accept the transmission or not)
What is it about Project Genesis that the Reliant would need to know? They're given parameters of what the research team needs. They go look for it. Maybe Terrell and Chekov have some basic high view of what's going on, but to think that Reliant's computers are chock full of Genesis data is pretty preposterous.
All I can say is that Khan is cognizant enough to ask Kirk for all data and materials regarding Genesis before wanting to blow him up. If he is cognizant enough to do that in the heat of battle, I think he would've had enough control to ask Terrell, Chekov and anyone else aboard Reliant about what files exist on the ship pertaining to the project.
Eeeeexactly...
Why are you so convinced that Reliant's crew had extensive knowledge of the project? As others have already stated, it's unlikely Khan would have gone to the trouble of asking Kirk to provide him with information about Genesis if he had already had access to it via Reliant's computer core? Khan may have been consumed by his need for revenge, but he wasn't stupid.
--Sran
Why? If their mission was to find a planet with certain characteristics and survey it, they don't need to know why, they just need to answer if it meets the specs. Look at the secrecy around the Manhattan Project in WW2: Ship captains were told to pick up a cargo here and transport it there, and all they knew about the cargo was that it was secret. Air crews were sent out to the desert to train to drop a single bomb by radar, but weren't told why they were doing it, it was secret. That's what "need to know" is all about.
Also, Kirk in TOS was tasked with seemingly menial jobs often enough, despite repeated mention that starship time was expensive. Clearly, starship captains aren't so important that the top echelons of Starfleet or the Federation would feel obligated to let them in on the big picture.
What was the relationship of the Reliant to the Genesis project at large? She was searching for a test site, but we heard of no other connection, no long history between the Marcuses on one hand and Terrell and his crew on the other. Numerous starships probably were involved: some helping out Starfleet Engineering Corps with the site preparation, others ferrying stuff for the lab, and at least this one ship (but possibly several) searching for the apparently extremely rare type of planet that would serve as a Phase II test site. It's very unlikely IMHO that any of these ships would have been told anything important about the Genesis project, other than it's so secret they can't even tell they are in the neighborhood when somebody sends an SOS.
Timo Saloniemi
What was the relationship of the Reliant to the Genesis project at large? She was searching for a test site, but we heard of no other connection, no long history between the Marcuses on one hand and Terrell and his crew on the other. Numerous starships probably were involved: some helping out Starfleet Engineering Corps with the site preparation, others ferrying stuff for the lab, and at least this one ship (but possibly several) searching for the apparently extremely rare type of planet that would serve as a Phase II test site. It's very unlikely IMHO that any of these ships would have been told anything important about the Genesis project, other than it's so secret they can't even tell they are in the neighborhood when somebody sends an SOS.
Timo Saloniemi
^Add to that the fact that after the device was detonated, Kirk wasn't allowed to go anywhere near the planet to retrieve his acting first-officer in spite of his already having knowledge of the Genesis experiment and the planet itself. If someone who'd already been read-in on the project's details (albeit because of the emergency that occurred during TWOK) wasn't allowed to visit or even talk about the planet, it's not a stretch to believe that Reliant's crew was largely in the dark about their mission.
--Sran
--Sran
One just wonders how many other things similar to Project Genesis were ongoing at the time, or during TOS or TNG, with the audience or even the heroes none the wiser! Much of what Starfleet does may well be hush-hush, considering they are supposed to protect the Federation against fantastic threats yet not supposed to do much in the way of over-the-counter armed operations.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
It is possible that the Reliant's crew, or at least its command officers, knew that it was a terraforming project and that would have been very interesting to Khan.
Whatever floats your boat slappy.
For those of you who made constructive opinions without resorting to being personal, thank you.
For the rest of you slappies who just can't accept the filmmakers do things that don't make sense sometimes and come up with alternate theories and decide to make it personal with the OP. Then you can just eat it.
The Enterprise returns to spacedock in ST III with 3 times as much battle damage as at the end of II
"Oh the nebula caused that damage, or it was hit more then the three times we saw on camera"
Nope had only three battle scars at the end of ST II
"Oh it was the wear and tear of returning home that caused that damage."
You mean the simple act of returning home caused "Wear and tear." that looked like an additional half dozen or so phaser or photon torpedo hits....wow federation spacecraft sure are fragile.
Why would Khan pump the Enterprise, which has had no involvement in Genesis, for Genesis info when he runs the Reliant, basically the federation flagship for their end of the project, has the top 2 officers of the ship under his control and has been to Regula.
"Oh the Reliant was just tooling around looking for a lifeless planet without any real idea why. Starfleet wouldn't actually keep its own copy of the info aboard and would just keep it's senior officers aboard barely informed about what is going on."
Yeah because that's how the military operates, they just totally trust civilian organizations with top secret projects and don't keep their at least their top people informed. When Paul Tibbets took off in the Enola Gay the Army Air Corps just told him he was going to be doing a little experiment over Hiroshima that day.
Jeez some of you slappies are so crazy about Star Trek that anyone who dares to point out significant plot holes must be total a-holes and there's always an alternative explanation no matter how far fetched, but get over yourself and just accept "Yep, the filmmakers seemed to have missed that one." Instead of the ridiculous crap you say how it really was and then get all personal.
Well whatever. Live long and prosper.
^As Genesis was a civilian project--something Marcus herself explicitly states--Starfleet didn't have the authority to mandate her sharing of the Genesis information with Reliant. The entire project was conducted on a need-to-know basis, a concept for which there are multiple historical precedents.
--Sran
--Sran
Yeah, OK, I'll bite.
So, how much of the information about the theory behind and the engineering details of and the practical problems of constructing an atomic bomb were conveyed to the Enola Gay crew before dropping the bomb? You know, so if, say, they had been captured, how long would Japan have had to hold out so the Imperial Navy could ship their first prototype bomb to the Panama Canal?
This is somewhat related in that it's about the Reliant, but did it seem to any of you that once Khan and his flunkies took over the ship, the bridge was shot differently? At that point, it seemed the camera angles were less varied than in the beginning. I can't really explain it any better than that, it was just an impression... 
Look I just disagree with your premise. Nothing personal. If you don't accept my explanation then you have a different opinion. Thats OK. Its honestly not because I love Star Trek and accept every bit of crap they put out. I'm always finding flaws. I just genuinely don't have a problem with this piece of writing.
I can just think of 50 things in TWOK that worry me more than Reliant's crew not knowing much of Genesis. Eg why the Ceti eels make Terrell and Chekov just obey Khan's commands, why not everyones?, why Terrell and Chekov don't get their brains eaten and Khan's people did, why couldn't they just put the Genesis device on a transporter and disassemble it in space like they did in 'Wolf in the Fold', why Khan's crew looked like they were in their mid 20s, etc.
"Slappy" means "dummy" or "a stupid or moronic person". That's pretty uncalled for.
"Slappies" was a term I hadn't heard before. I'm giving you a friendly. Please remember in the future that name calling like this will result in your receiving an infraction. Thank you.
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