Wouldn't Reliant already have all the Genesis data and materials.

[enterprisecvn65]

So I'm going to pretend that I'm Spock as Khan's second in command instead of Jochiam.

So we find Chekov and Terrell and they won't talk. So let's hit them with the Ceti Eels to get the info we want.

Cruel, but logical and effective.

Then lets hijack the Reliant and use it to attack the Enterprise and kill Kirk.

Very logical, we're both in the same fleet the Enterprise will probably be taken totally by surprise.

First though this Genesis thing Terrell and Chekov spoke about, this sounds like it could be a very powerful weapon, let's detour to Regula I and see if we can get a hold of it.

Very logical sir, a weapon of that magnitude would be a great asset to posses.

Well we've killed all the Regula crew and found nothing but we can't dick around here anymore if we want to ambush the Enterprise.

Since that is our primary purpose for this vendetta leaving now to get Kirk is logical.

OK we've seriously damaged the Enterprise I'm going to hail them now so I can gloat.

Hmmmmm kind of unnecessary and emotional but not totally illogical given your state of mind.

So Kirk has offered to give himself up if I spare the Enterprise and I agreed.

Logical, your beef is with Kirk it is not necessary to kill the crew or destroy the ship to fulfill your goal.

First though I'm going to ask him to transmit all data and materials regarding Genesis...

WHOA!!!!!!! Uh sir you do realize that the Reliant, the ship we are currently in control of is the main starfleet ship involved in the Genesis project and therefore it is logical to assume we would already have access to all the materials there are to know and the Enterprise, which was on a training mission before being called to emergency duty, would likely have nothing more to offer us. This is highly illogical.

Yeah but there are security measures in place like that retena scan crap and I don't want to have to deal with that, it would just be simpler to let them transmit the info over to us.

Uh again sir they almost for sure don't have any more info than the Reliant, as the main test ship, would and it's logical to assume that Terrell, even though he's not an Admiral, as Captain of the ship so involved in Genesis would have all the security clearances needed.

NO GODDAMNIT.........I WANT THE INFORMATION THE ENTERPRISE HAS!!!!!! NOW LET THEM TRANSMIT IT TO US. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG!?!?!?!

Sigh.....whatever you say sir.....oh and BTW our shields are dropping.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The sole function of the Reliant was to find an empty planetoid for Genesis to test on. They weren't doing research or anything like that. That's what Regula 1 was for. That's where all the Genesis data was. There was no reason for the Reliant to have any of it. Look at how controversial the project was anyway...

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Still, imagine the irony if the Reliant did have the genesis data on board the whole time!!

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The sole function of the Reliant was to find an empty planetoid for Genesis to test on. They weren't doing research or anything like that. That's what Regula 1 was for. That's where all the Genesis data was. There was no reason for the Reliant to have any of it. Look at how controversial the project was anyway...

I really can't imagine starfleet would lend one of their starships to a science research team to find a lifeless planet and when they ask the scientists what they want the ship for the Genesis team would say "You don't need to know that. So just shut your fucking mouth, give us a starship and stop asking questions."

Likewise I doubt starfleet would tell Terrell to just go and look for a lifeless planet just for the hell of it. He clearly had extensive knowledge of Genesis or how else would Khan have known about it in the first place? Seems logical to me that the Captain of the ship of the starfleet end of the project would be the most likely source for information on genesis.

What Khan did in asking Kirk and the Enterprise for all their info and data would be like if North Korea hijacked a Trident submarine, attacked a US Navy destroyer and then in exchange for their lives told the captain of the the destroyer to give them all the data they have on the strategies, codes, and movements of all US Trident submarines........You already control a ship that would be most likely to possess that info already. The destroyer and it's captain wouldn't know anything that could be useful.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

The sole function of the Reliant was to find an empty planetoid for Genesis to test on. They weren't doing research or anything like that. That's what Regula 1 was for. That's where all the Genesis data was. There was no reason for the Reliant to have any of it. Look at how controversial the project was anyway...

My thoughts exactly. Just because Reliant was involved in the project doesn't mean that they had any information about it. For all we know, only Terrell and Chekov had any working knowledge of the project or its objectives--which may be why both the captain and the first officer beamed down to investigate the mysterious readings Reliant picked up as it entered the system. Maybe no one else knew the ship's true mission objective.

Chekov recorded a log entry, but that data file was most likely encrypted and accessible only by Chekov or Terrell.

I really can't imagine starfleet would lend one of their starships to a science research team to find a lifeless planet and when they ask the scientists what they want the ship for the Genesis team would say "You don't need to know that. So just shut your fucking mouth, give us a starship and stop asking questions."

Project Genesis was under the control of Dr. Marcus and her team. Although it's likely the higher-ups at Starfleet were aware of the Genesis Project (Kirk seemed to have at least some familiarity with before viewing the tape with Spock and McCoy), they didn't have the authority to compel Marcus to share any information about its objectives. And as we don't know the exact circumstances of how or why Reliant became involved in the project in the first place, who's to say Terrell (give his experience with Project Vanguard) didn't volunteer his ship for duty?

Likewise I doubt starfleet would tell Terrell to just go and look for a lifeless planet just for the hell of it. He clearly had extensive knowledge of Genesis or how else would Khan have known about it in the first place? Seems logical to me that the Captain of the ship of the starfleet end of the project would be the most likely source for information on genesis.

There's absolutely no information suggesting that Terrell had extensive knowledge of Genesis. We know that he was aware of the project and its objectives, but nothing stated in the films gives me the impression he knew anything more than what he needed to know in order to carry out his mission. Now that I think about it, how many of the Enterprise senior officers knew of the project before the torpedo was detonated inside the Mutara Nebula? As far as we know, only Kirk, Spock and McCoy were aware of it. Saavik learned of it only because she accompanied Kirk once the Enterprise reached Regula One.

--Sran

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The sole function of the Reliant was to find an empty planetoid for Genesis to test on. They weren't doing research or anything like that. That's what Regula 1 was for. That's where all the Genesis data was. There was no reason for the Reliant to have any of it. Look at how controversial the project was anyway...

My thoughts exactly. Just because Reliant was involved in the project doesn't mean that they had any information about it. For all we know, only Terrell and Chekov had any working knowledge of the project or its objectives--which may be why both the captain and the first officer beamed down to investigate the mysterious readings Reliant picked up as it entered the system. Maybe no one else knew the ship's true mission objective.

Chekov recorded a log entry, but that data file was most likely encrypted and accessible only by Chekov or Terrell.

--Sran

Uh you mean the same Chekov and Terrell that Khan had total mind control over and could get them to do anything he wanted to.

 

[Nebusj]

WHOA!!!!!!! Uh sir you do realize that the Reliant, the ship we are currently in control of is the main starfleet ship involved in the Genesis project and therefore it is logical to assume we would already have access to all the materials there are to know and the Enterprise, which was on a training mission before being called to emergency duty, would likely have nothing more to offer us. This is highly illogical.

Well, first, I'd expect that Reliant doesn't have information down to, like, how to build a Genesis Device itself in its files. (Regula One would, naturally, but that was hidden or destroyed before Marcus and company fled.) For one, the project was still under development: note Marcus fiddling with that data bank which had somehow just gotten filled up. For another, why would Reliant need to know everything about the project? Goals, needs, operational requirements for a particular mission, sure, but why would it need to know, say, how to stabilize the protomatter activation matrix?

Second, even if between Reliant and Regula One Khan had all the information there was to have about Genesis, he would have no way to be certain he did have it all, at least not before perusing all the documentation and its cross-references and implications and all that, and he may be a fast reader but he's not that fast.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Uh you mean the same Chekov and Terrell that Khan had total mind control over and could get them to do anything he wanted to.

Even someone under the influence of a Ceti eel wouldn't be able to share information he didn't have.

--Sran

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Even someone under the influence of a Ceti eel wouldn't be able to share information he didn't have.

That just reminded me of the scene where Dr. Marcus was talking to Chekov.

Chekov: Upon our arrival, all data and materials regarding project genesis vill be transferred to this ship for immediate testing on Ceti Alpha VI.

It sort of sounds like it's something they don't yet possess.

 

[BillJ]

I think someone lost focus on what 'secret' means. Kirk as an Admiral had to provide retina scans to access the Genesis data probably through an encrypted subspace information packet. I seriously doubt the Reliant had any hard information on the project. What would be the point? The project information isn't relevant to the search.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

I think someone lost focus on what 'secret' means. Kirk as an Admiral had to provide retina scans to access the Genesis data probably through an encrypted subspace information packet. I seriously doubt the Reliant had any hard information on the project. What would be the point? The project information isn't relevant to the search.

Exactly. Reliant's mission entailed finding a test site for Marcus' experiment, which is probably what most of the crew was told. I've a hard time believing that anyone aboard the ship other than Terrell and Chekov had any sort of detailed knowledge about Genesis (and what Terrell and Chekov knew didn't appear to be that much), precisely because they wouldn't have been read-in by Starfleet or by Marcus' team as to the specifics of the project.

A thought about Kirk's security clearance: it's possible Kirk's rank afforded him the clearance necessary to view Marcus' video presentation; however, it's also possible his security clearance was temporarily upgraded so that he could learn about the project and help Marcus prevent it from being stolen.

When Marcus contacts Kirk, he doesn't ask her what Genesis is. Rather, he asks her who's trying to take it, suggesting that he had at least some knowledge of the project--which fits with the first hypothesis. That said, as Spock doesn't appear to have the necessary security clearance to view the documents himself, it's likely Starfleet was trying to keep a tight lid on the project even before it blew up (literally) in their faces.

--Sran

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Reliant crew probably only knew that there was some project called Genesis, for which the crew needed to find a planetoid that was absolutely lifeless. That's all they needed to know. What Genesis actually IS, or why they needed an empty planet, was not the crew's concern.

 

[MacLeod]

The sole function of the Reliant was to find an empty planetoid for Genesis to test on. They weren't doing research or anything like that. That's what Regula 1 was for. That's where all the Genesis data was. There was no reason for the Reliant to have any of it. Look at how controversial the project was anyway...

I really can't imagine starfleet would lend one of their starships to a science research team to find a lifeless planet and when they ask the scientists what they want the ship for the Genesis team would say "You don't need to know that. So just shut your fucking mouth, give us a starship and stop asking questions."

Likewise I doubt starfleet would tell Terrell to just go and look for a lifeless planet just for the hell of it. He clearly had extensive knowledge of Genesis or how else would Khan have known about it in the first place? Seems logical to me that the Captain of the ship of the starfleet end of the project would be the most likely source for information on genesis.

What Khan did in asking Kirk and the Enterprise for all their info and data would be like if North Korea hijacked a Trident submarine, attacked a US Navy destroyer and then in exchange for their lives told the captain of the the destroyer to give them all the data they have on the strategies, codes, and movements of all US Trident submarines........You already control a ship that would be most likely to possess that info already. The destroyer and it's captain wouldn't know anything that could be useful.

Starfleet was fully aware of Project Genesis, remember the tape Kirk, Spock and McCoy viewed where Dr. Marcus is in essence selling Porject Genesis to the Federation. How much the crew of the Reliant knew is a different matter, all they might know is that as Part of Project Genesis they have to find a planet with certain characteristics.

 

[Ithekro]

That is the clear point. ADMIRAL Kirk would have access to more data on Genesis than a Captain would. Spock had no idea what Dr. Marcus was talking about, but Kirk did, at least on some level. The later seen briefing on Genesis in Star Trek III is Admiral Kirk giving Dr. Marcus' presentation. Kirk is considered the Genesis commander himself, by the Klingons. Why Enterprise would have any materals for Genesis is unknown, but it is clear that Reliant does not, and the Regula I station no longer did. It is possible Kahn got the basic data on Dr. Marcus' briefing on Genesis, just as Spock and McCoy did from Kirk. That Dr. Marcus called Admiral Kirk is something though. Why Kirk? Aside from their past relationship, why did Carol call Jim about Reliant coming for Genesis? Kahn intercepted that message, so he would assume something is up there as well.

It is happenstance that Enterprise is the nearest starship other than Reliant to Regula I.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

That is the clear point. ADMIRAL Kirk would have access to more data on Genesis than a Captain would.

Not necessarily. Rank is important but not all-encompassing. An officer's billet or assignment may require his or her being read into a project that a superior officer may have no knowledge of. We can speculate that Kirk had knowledge of Genesis before TWOK, but there's no way to know for sure.

The later seen briefing on Genesis in Star Trek III is Admiral Kirk giving Dr. Marcus' presentation.

Kirk's presentation was likely part of his after-action report that he submitted to Starfleet post-TWOK/pre-TSFS. That doesn't mean he knew as much about the project as Marcus or any surviving members of her team.

Kirk is considered the Genesis commander himself, by the Klingons.

Only because they watched his version of the video presentation about the project and incorrectly assumed he was in charge of it. Had they seen Marcus' earlier video, they might have deduced that she was its driving force rather than Kirk.

That Dr. Marcus called Admiral Kirk is something though. Why Kirk? Aside from their past relationship, why did Carol call Jim about Reliant coming for Genesis? Kahn intercepted that message, so he would assume something is up there as well.

Recall that Chekov lied to Marcus in stating that Kirk authorized the transfer of the Genesis materials to Reliant. The entire thing was a set-up by Khan in order to lure the Enterprise into a trap. Khan deduced that Marcus would reach out to Kirk as a result of Chekov's lie and that Kirk would feel obligated to investigate. It's unlikely that either Khan or Chekov knew of Kirk's prior relationship with Marcus, however.

--Sran

 

[Captrek]

While we're nitpicking that scene, what's with the "coil emissions overloading the comm system" ploy? Why not have the Reliant crew at their stations pretending everything is normal until the attack? Then they wouldn't have had to rely on Kirk ignoring General Order 12. Did they run out of ceti eels?

 

[Maurice]

It didn't look like Khan had more than two eels and whatever babies they were carrying, so unless they went on a big eel hunt they probably didn't have enough "pets" to control any significant portion of the crew. My guess is that Khan had Terrell tell the crew they'd found shipwreck survivors, beamed them all up, and then Khan and Co, grabbed control as in "Space Seed".

 

[Commishsleer]

I really can't imagine starfleet would lend one of their starships to a science research team to find a lifeless planet and when they ask the scientists what they want the ship for the Genesis team would say "You don't need to know that. So just shut your fucking mouth, give us a starship and stop asking questions."

Likewise I doubt starfleet would tell Terrell to just go and look for a lifeless planet just for the hell of it. He clearly had extensive knowledge of Genesis or how else would Khan have known about it in the first place? Seems logical to me that the Captain of the ship of the starfleet end of the project would be the most likely source for information on genesis.

Starfleet were sponsoring the project.
David Marcus complained about their involvement. Obviously Kirk knew about the project - at least high level knowledge. He knew what testing phase they were up to.

I thought Terrell was keen to just find a planet and get out of there onto some more rewarding work. I doubt they 'knew' any details as someone has said Kirk needed Retina scan to show Spock and McCoy.
Thats not to say Terrell had no idea. He probably looked up Marcus on space-wikepedia and found out she was some terraforma scientist and maybe guessed in general terms what they were doing.

 

[Timo]

This entire Genesis thing seems to be extremely hush-hush - when Kirk encounters the Reliant for the first time, he appears completely unaware that the starship is in any way related to the Genesis project, despite just having contacted Starfleet and (re)viewed the Genesis files.

It has every mark of "need to know" on it. Starfleet may have given Marcus control over some very expensive assets (the lab, the ship, a few spare star systems even), but it has also effectively and efficiently isolated Marcus and her team. David really sounds naïve when complaining about a Starfleet takeover - he should have known better. But even Carol appears concerned that Genesis is being taken "away" from her. Why? Chekov doesn't ask her to give up the project and retire, he asks her merely to produce (copies of) everything necessary for the testing to begin.

I think this is further proof that everybody involved in the project only knows tiny, carefully firewalled segments of the whole truth, and is working under some pretty misleading assumptions. Kirk clearly isn't the boss of the operation, as he knows the least of all. And somebody high up at Starfleet is flat out refusing to tell Kirk anything relevant, presumably assuming that the project has merely moved to the stage where Terrell (or, say, Captain Shadey of USS Ominous, standing by) will execute his orders and seize the test material from Marcus as planned by the Starfleet project leaders.

He or she cannot tell Kirk as much, so Kirk barges in anyway, but this is presumably a risk the project leaders want to take, rather than enter into an authority argument with Kirk. Better have Kirk chat it out with the local commander out there in the sticks and then come back if he still wants to start a shouting match in civilized space.

While we're nitpicking that scene, what's with the "coil emissions overloading the comm system" ploy?

Well, the Reliant doesn't really have any good reason for her rendezvous with Kirk's ship. How could her crew convince Kirk otherwise? Ceti eel victims probably lack initiative and imagination, and Khan himself isn't in on Starfleet secret handshakes and ongoing operations and standing orders and whatnot.

Faking a minor distress would serve two functions. One, it would keep Kirk suitably confused and unlikely to start broader queries - and two, his confusion would not result in him raising shields and arming weapons, because a fellow starship in distress might require immediate transporter action and raised shields might cost lives!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Not necessarily. Rank is important but not all-encompassing. An officer's billet or assignment may require his or her being read into a project that a superior officer may have no knowledge of. We can speculate that Kirk had knowledge of Genesis before TWOK, but there's no way to know for sure.

That's quite right of course, but IIRC there was a cut part of the script that dealt with that: Kirk was said to be not just any admiral, but a member of Starfleet's General Staff who had knowledge of the project. That's also in the novel. In some version of the movie (not the theatrical one, again IIRC) Chekov also identified Kirk as being part of the General Staff.