Wouldn't It Make More Sense....(Spoilers)

[Franklin]

Starship Polaris said:

Samuel T. Cogley said:
Well, the original spoiler was by a guy who claimed to have some knowledge about the plot, and then he personally speculated on other things based on that plot. And it was very difficult to tell what was his speculation and what came from the (alleged) plot.

But I think he speculated that the Romulans accidentally ended up back in time and decided to take the newfound opportunity to kill Kirk's father, thereby eliminating Kirk, etc.

Sounds ridiculous to me, but then so do many other Star Trek episodes/movies when reduced to a synopsis.

There's a sort of a rule in storytelling - I forget where and when I first saw someone explicitly formulate it - that the audience will generally forgive you one huge coincidence or happenstance in order to get a story started. Only one, and it better come real early.

Like conveniently finding two whales -- humpbacks, of course -- in captivity (and wearing tracking devices in case they are released).

IF the plot rumor from AICN is true, I'd hope it's coincidence that finds the Romulans in a time when preventing Kirk from being born is the nastiest thing they can do.
Rationalizations for "no Kirk" are more convoluted and would require more backstory to make sense to a non-Trek audience than the mere coincidence of finding themselves with a golden opportunity to probably change the future in their favor.

That said, it isn't so much about how "de-Kirking" the galaxy gives the Romulans an overt advantage. Basically, finding oneself with a chance to prevent Kirk from being born is a lot like giving yourself a good chance at destroying the Earth. Literally remove Kirk from time, and you've created several future scenarios that might end in the Earth being destroyed. Some of these events may still have been resolved so the "good guys" win, but the chances are not all will be. And, you only need one hit.

They wouldn't be events that were precipated by Kirk's Enterprise in the first place (in other words "City" probably wouldn't happen if there were no Kirk). But, there are other events that will happen Kirk or no Kirk. Those are the ones where the Romulans can role the dice and hope that someone else doesn't save the day. For instance, just from the movies:

-- V-ger shows up and is not appeased = Earth destroyed.
-- The probe shows up to no whales = Earth destroyed.
-- Praxis blows up and the conspiracy to prevent a detente isn't uncovered = Federation-Klingon war.

There are probably other examples. Dire things that will happen whether Kirk exists or not, but Kirk was crucial to having them turn out okay for the Feds. The Romulans would be playing the probabilities.

 

[EyalM]

If it wasn't for Kirk's actions in "the balance of terror", the Romulans would have attacked the federation with their new clocking device and probably would have won.

Or maybe the movie will show us the untold story of the event that made Kirk so important to Romulan history.

 

[Franklin]

EyalM said:
If it wasn't for Kirk's actions in "the balance of terror", the Romulans would have attacked the federation with their new clocking device and probably would have won.

Or maybe the movie will show us the untold story of the event that made Kirk so important to Romulan history.

Could be, or like I said above, it could be any one of several events where Kirk was crucial to the solution and any one of them ends disasterously without him.

Maybe the doomsday machine runs amok and destroys a great deal of the Federation.
Maybe the poisoning of the colonists on Sherman's Planet leads to a war between the Klingons and the Federation.
All good for the Romulans.

In other words, it doesn't have to be a Romulan-centric event they're trying to manipulate by preventing Kirk from being born.
The mere coicidence of finding themselves in a time when they can prevent Kirk from being born puts the future of the Earth and the entire Federation in peril. What baddie wouldn't take advantage of that opportunity? What better way of actually showing how crucial Kirk was to the future of the galaxy "as we know it?"

 

[Zachary Smith]

The Romulans strategy in the Star Trek universe has ALWAYS come from the Wile E. Coyote playbook. It's always overly complex and arcane, positively Rube Golderbian in its conceptualization and often based on some kind of new, shiny technology (probably acquired through the mail from the ACME co.) They never choose the straight and obvious course in anything they do, usually ultimately to their detriment. It's consistent with their cultural heritage to tie rockets onto their heels to try to chase roadrunners, only to fail to account for a bend in the road up ahead and slam into the side of a mesa. Frankly, if I lived on Romulus, I'd probably make a fortune selling signs on wooden sticks that said "YIPE!" on them.

 

[aridas sofia]

I just love this kind of "mess with the timeline" storytelling. It gets one or two words past the first sentence and you realize you are really, really going to be suspending disbelief.

"Romulans find themselves in an earlier time with an opportunity to kill a pivotal figure in Earth-Romulan relations..."

Okay. So they kill him. And then, like, um... what happens to the Romulans? What happens to their empire? They just know it's gonna get better?

I wrote one of these in the 80s. About a starship at the heart of the task force stationed to defend the Guardian planet from... the Romulans. (Just how creative is an idea like that if it occurred to a goofball like me 25 years ago?) I had to write and rewrite and rewrite in order to keep weeding out the inconsistencies and implausibilities. I had them trying to go so far back they could stop the Federation from ever being formed -- just to realize that if they did, in the new timeline they would face another foe even more detrimental to their plans. That's the only way the story ever worked -- by changing the focus to the frustration of the Romulan plotters and their inability to use this supposedly Universe-altering tool to their advantage.

My point? Assuming you can change time, how do you guarantee the new timeline is better than the old one? You've already used up your allotted amount of bolognium in the first "assume" and now you're left with an empty sandwich and a hungry plot.

 

[Franklin]

Zachary Smith said:
The Romulans strategy in the Star Trek universe has ALWAYS come from the Wile E. Coyote playbook. It's always overly complex and arcane, positively Rube Golderbian in its conceptualization and often based on some kind of new, shiny technology (probably acquired through the mail from the ACME co.) They never choose the straight and obvious course in anything they do, usually ultimately to their detriment. It's consistent with their cultural heritage to tie rockets onto their heels to try to chase roadrunners, only to fail to account for a bend in the road up ahead and slam into the side of a mesa. Frankly, if I lived on Romulus, I'd probably make a fortune selling signs on wooden sticks that said "YIPE!" on them.

Hee!

Imagine no Kirk because of the Romulans's plan, and in the "new" timeline, the captain from some other Federation starship ends up running into Lazarus A and Lazarus B. That captain screws up the encounter where Kirk succeeded, the two Lazaruses meet in one universe, and KA-BOOM! No more universe.

Yipes!

 

[ST-One]

aridas sofia said:
I just love this kind of "mess with the timeline" storytelling. It gets one or two words past the first sentence and you realize you are really, really going to be suspending disbelief.

"Romulans find themselves in an earlier time with an opportunity to kill a pivotal figure in Earth-Romulan relations..."

Okay. So they kill him. And then, like, um... what happens to the Romulans? What happens to their empire? They just know it's gonna get better?

I wrote one of these in the 80s. About a starship at the heart of the task force stationed to defend the Guardian planet from... the Romulans. (Just how creative is an idea like that if it occurred to a goofball like me 25 years ago?) I had to write and rewrite and rewrite in order to keep weeding out the inconsistencies and implausibilities. I had them trying to go so far back they could stop the Federation from ever being formed -- just to realize that if they did, in the new timeline they would face another foe even more detrimental to their plans. That's the only way the story ever worked -- by changing the focus to the frustration of the Romulan plotters and their inability to use this supposedly Universe-altering tool to their advantage.

My point? Assuming you can change time, how do you guarantee the new timeline is better than the old one? You've already used up your allotted amount of bolognium in the first "assume" and now you're left with an empty sandwich and a hungry plot.

You must love 'The year of hell'

 

[captcalhoun]

remove Kirk and you remove the likeliehood of Khitomer succeeding, which could mean war between the UFP and Klingons, which means the RSE gets to sit back and watch the other two rip each other to shreds.

tough shit for the RSE when the Dominion arrives though...

 

[Peacemaker]

Kryton said:
Spock should cut open Kirk's brain and find out what makes him such a good leader.







What?

Star Trek XII: Kirk's Brain

 

[Kegek]

adrias sofia said:
I wrote one of these in the 80s. About a starship at the heart of the task force stationed to defend the Guardian planet from... the Romulans. (Just how creative is an idea like that if it occurred to a goofball like me 25 years ago?)

I know the feeling. I toyed with the idea, years ago, of the Romulans going back in time and accidentally creating human life. So to correct the timeline, our heroes would have to wipe out the human race.

Tough call, eh? I always felt the temporal prime directive is something that needed to be seriously turned on its head with a shocking conundrum like that.

So, there's nothing original with the plot. Big whoop. There's coincidences in the plot. Bigger whoop.

Rick: Of all the gin joints in all the world, she had to walk into mine. I mean, seriously, what were the goddamn odds? Talk about shoddy plotting, eh, Sam? I'd like to see the bastards who wrote this script. I mean, these letters of transit were signed by De Gaulle, why the flying horse radishes would the Germans accept them? So much crap in this movie...

My point being: We don't have the script. Maybe it's good enough to justify this. Maybe not. (Transformers, one of O&K's most recent collaborations, certainly wasn't). Maybe it'll be a good movie regardless.

 

[ST-One]

Kegek said:

adrias sofia said:
I wrote one of these in the 80s. About a starship at the heart of the task force stationed to defend the Guardian planet from... the Romulans. (Just how creative is an idea like that if it occurred to a goofball like me 25 years ago?)

I know the feeling. I toyed with the idea, years ago, of the Romulans going back in time and accidentally creating human life. So to correct the timeline, our heroes would have to wipe out the human race.

Tough call, eh? I always felt the temporal prime directive is something that needed to be seriously turned on its head with a shocking conundrum like that.

So, there's nothing original with the plot. Big whoop. There's coincidences in the plot. Bigger whoop.

Rick: Of all the gin joints in all the world, she had to walk into mine. I mean, seriously, what were the goddamn odds? Talk about shoddy plotting, eh, Sam? I'd like to see the bastards who wrote this script. I mean, these letters of transit were signed by De Gaulle, why the flying horse radishes would the Germans accept them? So much crap in this movie...

My point being: We don't have the script. Maybe it's good enough to justify this. Maybe not. (Transformers, one of O&K's most recent collaborations, certainly wasn't). Maybe it'll be a good movie regardless.

Kegek, would you change your post, please? 25 years ago I was 2.

 

[Kegek]

So you were. That's why I hate quote ziggurats, you can make errors trimming them.

 

[aridas sofia]

Kegek said:

adrias sofia said:
I wrote one of these in the 80s. About a starship at the heart of the task force stationed to defend the Guardian planet from... the Romulans. (Just how creative is an idea like that if it occurred to a goofball like me 25 years ago?)

I know the feeling. I toyed with the idea, years ago, of the Romulans going back in time and accidentally creating human life. So to correct the timeline, our heroes would have to wipe out the human race.

Tough call, eh? I always felt the temporal prime directive is something that needed to be seriously turned on its head with a shocking conundrum like that.

So, there's nothing original with the plot. Big whoop. There's coincidences in the plot. Bigger whoop.

Rick: Of all the gin joints in all the world, she had to walk into mine. I mean, seriously, what were the goddamn odds? Talk about shoddy plotting, eh, Sam? I'd like to see the bastards who wrote this script. I mean, these letters of transit were signed by De Gaulle, why the flying horse radishes would the Germans accept them? So much crap in this movie...

My point being: We don't have the script. Maybe it's good enough to justify this. Maybe not. (Transformers, one of O&K's most recent collaborations, certainly wasn't). Maybe it'll be a good movie regardless.

Well, in fairness (to me) I was commenting on the general idea of time-travel-to-do-in-your-enemy stories, and not some unseen script.

I know enough (barely) to not comment on something I've not seen.

BTW, how 'bout that suckass design for the new Enterprise?