Poll Would you purchase a legit remaster of DS9?

[Outcast91]

A glance at the Vinegar Syndrome catalog shows how some companies will remaster old movies and TV shows with less commercial potential. The problem is Paramount's lack of vision and rapid contraction.

I asked Vinegar Syndrome months ago.
Their reply was a yes to Radioactive Dreams, but that they don't do TV shows.

 

[AntonyF]

A glance at the Vinegar Syndrome catalog shows how some companies will remaster old movies and TV shows with less commercial potential. The problem is Paramount's lack of vision and rapid contraction.

I think the situation is quite different in many ways.

Niche outfits, taking reasonably niche movies (and if it's anything like Arrow Films charging a premium price) is different to a large studio which ultimately is much more risk averse. The complexity of a TV show vs one film (and films not needing CGI most likely) is a very different proposition.

The rewards may not be high, but the risks are not too high in the case of the movies.

That said... perhaps that is the most viable way forward - a third party that will de-risk the process for Paramount and do it themselves. I don't know if it's done at all for TV series, particularly ones with huge brand value like Trek... but it's an interesting thought.

 

[Outcast91]

I think the situation is quite different in many ways.

Niche outfits, taking reasonably niche movies (and if it's anything like Arrow Films charging a premium price) is different to a large studio which ultimately is much more risk averse. The complexity of a TV show vs one film (and films not needing CGI most likely) is a very different proposition.

The rewards may not be high, but the risks are not too high in the case of the movies.

That said... perhaps that is the most viable way forward - a third party that will de-risk the process for Paramount and do it themselves. I don't know if it's done at all for TV series, particularly ones with huge brand value like Trek... but it's an interesting thought.

Under Paramount's old guard that didn't work out.
If a third party steps in, then paramount will start demanding more money.
Paramount didn't give a damn about Jericho, but Netflix wanted to produce a third season.
What then happened, was Paramount flexed until Netflix backed away from the deal.
I think it would be the same thing, unless you're doing a charity job for Paramount, they're not gonna cooperate.
That being said, things seemed to work differently for the documentaries.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Amending my answer: I'm in for a remaster of seasons 3-7. The razor blade was not kind to Mr. Brooks.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Sounds to me you don't actually want a remaster. You want a rebuild that only resembles the original show.

This.

That might happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath. More often than not, AI is used as an excuse for subpar work that removes the critical eye of a human and undermines the archiving of old film materials.

Agreed. That, and the tendency to buy into the empty notion that any "older" production must be "fixed".

No.

Without the original footage and effects files, AI is nothing more than an Adobe transformation tool. It does nothing to preserve the footage. And without the human eye, especially the original creators, it will only ever be a guess about the look of the show.

Again, this.

OP: yes, I would buy a remaster of DS9. I prefer to own physical media, rather than leave my media interests to the whims and agendas of IP holders / corporations. IOW, the day will come when certain movies or TV series may be permanently pulled from distribution, so why would anyone leave that choice up to any other person or company?

 

[Outcast91]

I just feel like the whole people who are pro AI here have lost the plot.
Fans who did the AI upscales did them and offer them up on the internet, because there isn't an HD image to begin with.
The studio in either case would upscale the master tapes to start using them as a template to match takes to, that's part of how they remastered season 2 of TNG, generally, the foundation is a bicubic upscale, that iConform matches takes of the image to.
It was deemed unacceptable in 2010 to do that, the sample of that footage is also available on TNG's bluray release.
From what can now be seen with Roseanne, Aliens and True Lies 4k, it's just an automated enhancement algorithm that can sometimes redraw faces (Badly).
Diffusion upscalers are kinda worse, even on HD footage, I tested a clip from Emissary that was remastered for WWLB, and it literally removed Terry Farrel's teeth.
I feel that the upscaling movement in general comes from a place of cynicism (That there possibly won't be an HD master of the series), and the product that results from just upscaling it, is also extremely cynical, and the studio would only be able to output an upscale inferior to something a fan can do with mediocre sources.
At this point, the studio doing it is almost as tone deaf as a laserdisc transfer of Star Wars going to DVD.
Fans wanted the original '77 cut, and for a very long time, there wasn't a legitimate scan of it to look at.
As for a rebuild of the show, part of remastering is rebuilding the master from pristine sources. That's literally what constitutes a good remaster.
On a technical level, you could call an AI upscale a remaster, as it's cleaning up the master, but it's digitally enhanced.
From what I gather, fan upscales are freely available, and would look better than what the studio would offer, as the studio would bake deadlines in.
If the studio were to release something like that and pass it off, it would be very insulting.
I've seen some of what CandyBoys did with Voyager, and the AI can't discern if 7 of 9 is male sometimes, it's jarring.
So the most valuable part is an actor's face.
Personally, from the few HD clips I've seen from WWLB, there's nothing wrong with DS9's production value, it's beautiful, and I think you're robbing fans of Star Trek if you do a simple upscale at the studio level. From the costumes, to the sets, to the color, it's not some sickly green, there's a vibrancy to that. Even the makeup looks HD ready, Quark looked excellent in HD, as did the Cardassians.
The costumes looked amazing, and the props looked very good.
It's nice when a fan can do an upscale, it shows the fan's love and dedication to the show.
If a studio does it, it's a very terrible thing.
The template is simple, scan 35mm, grade, fix, edit (that can be automated) and let the people who love it, enjoy it.
There's a natural HD image there that probably wouldn't look good past 2k, 4k max.
The X files would be pointless in 4k, but it looks fine in 2k.
Bare minimum you need a good 2k source for a good upscale.

But there is another issue, your brain can identify facial expressions and knows what an upscale is supposed to look like for the most part. When an upscaler gets it wrong, your brain just knows, it can see it. The upscaling algorithm is far less sophisticated than a human brain, we've made great strides, but not yet does it look great.
The problem with "cutting edge" tech, is that it's still inferior to a substrate like 35mm film, or 16mm film, and smears detail, it has no sense of depth, and no sense of how grain patterns are different from skin.
In fact, the texture of skin is a big deal for me, little white hairs and other odd things happen, where the skin looks like some rubber reptilian carpet hybrid.
It struggles with teeth, and eyes, the big thing, the window into the soul.

 

[Outcast91]

I guess what I'm trying to say is, 35mm film is currently still the cutting edge technology, and has been for damn near 100 years.
Nothing can beat it.

 

[Outcast91]

Finally, who cares if they're 30 year old productions, that doesn't make them bad.
After all, Star Trek is an old franchise with 60 year old content people still care about.
Last I checked, Trek ages like wine, which means the older it gets, the better it gets.

 

[Sketcher]

There's a lot about Trek that absolutely does not age well.

Also why does everyone wants effects redone/upscaled/whatever? Let them stand on their own, low-resolution warts and all.

 

[Ragitsu]

Appeal to modernity.

 

[Tosk]

Also why does everyone wants effects redone/upscaled/whatever? Let them stand on their own, low-resolution warts and all.

We already have the low-res warts edition of the effects.

If they were to ever conform the show to HD, the effects should at least be upscaled.

 

[Outcast91]

We already have the low-res warts edition of the effects.

If they were to ever conform the show to HD, the effects should at least be upscaled.

The problem with upscaling them comes to the bad mastering decisions.
1. DS9 recycles a fuckton of FX shots anyway.
2. Rainbows, combing, dot crawl and interlacing artifacts plague those old masters to an extreme degree.

I've seen diffusion upscalers do some good things for some of those FX shots, however, in some cases, say the Danube in the intro, run that through Starlight Mini, and it looks like a bug...not like a runabout, like something from LEXX.

 

[Tosk]

The problem with upscaling them comes to the bad mastering decisions.

The actual masters aren't in as bad a shape as the current commercially available ones though. If they were to use the actual master tapes as the basis for any careful upscaling the results would be far, far better than the highly flawed DVD transfers.

The LaserDisc project where they are using multiple copies stacked to create a higher quality image is doing some remarkable work.

1. DS9 recycles a fuckton of FX shots anyway.

As does all 60s-00s Trek.

2. Rainbows, combing, dot crawl and interlacing artifacts plague those old masters to an extreme degree.

Much of which is not actually on the masters, but were introduced by poor decision making when making the now-ancient digital transfers. Even just the raw stacked LaserDiscs with no upscaling at all produce a better image than the DVDs.

 

[Outcast91]

The actual masters aren't in as bad a shape as the current commercially available ones though. If they were to use the actual master tapes as the basis for any careful upscaling the results would be far, far better than the highly flawed DVD transfers.

The LaserDisc project where they are using multiple copies stacked to create a higher quality image is doing some remarkable work.


As does all 60s-00s Trek.


Much of which is not actually on the masters, but were introduced by poor decision making when making the now-ancient digital transfers. Even just the raw stacked LaserDiscs with no upscaling at all produce a better image than the DVDs.

Dude, A lot of those mastering problems are just as bad on the Laserdisc as they are on the DVD.
Sometimes the DVD doesn't have them, and the Laserdisc does.
Even then, I think the studio masters are probably in pretty terrible shape.
But...The reason I mentioned the recycling of FX shots, is because that's your silver lining.
You can track down that same FX shot later, and it won't be in as bad a shape.
Hence why I mentioned it.
For FX, where you don't want to recomp multiple passes of the station, (No live actors) Using a Diffusion Upscaler like Starlight Mini has sometimes surprised me, I woudn't mind that.
But you'd still have to dig through masters and see which VFX shots on which tapes looked the best.

 

[Outcast91]

My caveat is like this.
Prioritize actors and rebuild that from 35mm film.
Select VFX shots of the station should be remastered from 35mm film, Intro maybe?
Finale should definitely be a new CGI comp of the station.
But for the most part, upscale FX shots of ships, I think Starlight mini isn't a bad option for that.
Season 1-5 is models.
If you let the old guard come back, and they want to rerender and recomp the last season and a half of CGI VFX and you want to pay for that great. (Mostly where the extensive VFX comes in, most people who estimated it said from season 1-5 it's literally as straight forward as TNG was.)

 

[Tosk]

Season 1-5 is models.

There is CG stuff all over seasons 1-5 for things other than ships though.

And even when it comes to ships, they started using CG as early as season three. (For a shot of the Defiant jumping to warp.)

Even then, I think the studio masters are probably in pretty terrible shape.

But still better than what we have available to us now.

 

[Ragitsu]

There is CG stuff all over seasons 1-5 for things other than ships though.

Not to mention all of those LCARS/alien GUIs shots.