• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Would you like the regular "silent characters" to get more of a role?

I don't know if it's been stated officially either way, but I don't think Ariam is a human cyborg, but some other species.

Sara Mitich is quite human though. Strange to get such a looker, then bury her under all that makeup and plastic.

View attachment 5192

It's understandable.

Sara Mitich is definitely a gorgeous girl. She's quite unrecognizable under the Ariam makeup. They could have really put anyone under that makeup and the result would be the same. And there isn't much action involved on her part. Just deliver exposition lines in a monotone computerized voice.

That being said, Sara is conventionally attractive. STD definitely wanted to shine the spotlight on less conventionally attractive females, and that's commendable for a show like this.

After the awkwardness of T'Pol on Enterprise... I'm fine with keeping sexiness out of Star Trek. It's never handled well. TOS was the only one that did a good job with it, for it's time, but after that... it just got awkward and exploitive with society's changing sensibilities, completely lacking subtlety. Enterprise was the biggest offender of this.
 
Not the mother; if they have to alter 25% of preexisting material she must be one of four parental figures to 0718. Maybe she's actually Andorian?!?!

Airam=Andorian confirmed
I mean, she got blue skin and the cybernetic enhancements account for the lack of antennae. It's basically already canon :D


I actually think this series would have been more interesting if the lead character was Andorian.

An Andorian female raised by Vulcans. There's definitely more tension to play with there.
 
It's understandable.

Sara Mitich is definitely a gorgeous girl. She's quite unrecognizable under the Ariam makeup. They could have really put anyone under that makeup and the result would be the same. And there isn't much action involved on her part. Just deliver exposition lines in a monotone computerized voice.

That being said, Sara is conventionally attractive. STD definitely wanted to shine the spotlight on less conventionally attractive females, and that's commendable for a show like this.

After the awkwardness of T'Pol on Enterprise... I'm fine with keeping sexiness out of Star Trek. It's never handled well. TOS was the only one that did a good job with it, for it's time, but after that... it just got awkward and exploitive with society's changing sensibilities, completely lacking subtlety. Enterprise was the biggest offender of this.

Oh yeah, I can definitely see the resemblance with and without the makeup. She has a fairly distinctive facial structure.

I'd really like to know more about the character in an official level. i know it's only 13-15 episodes per season, so it might be hard for them to squeeze in a "lower decks" type story.
 
Look up Chekhov's Gun. If you call attention to something in a work of fiction, people will believe it is important to the plot.
You could break an arm with this kind of reaching. :)

I don't think the Chekhov's Gun trope applies here at all. If say, Ariam, at the start of an episode walked up to Burnham and made some cryptic statement, and that episode, nor any that follow, resolve the statement, that might be an example of a violation of Chekhovs' Gun. But just having Ariam appear in a scene and spout a bit of relevant technobabble, that is not an example.

It still means your basic argument is that it is detrimental to DSC to make the background bridge characters too interesting looking. That is still a weird "criticism".
 
I have a feeling that some of the secondary cast will be elevated a bit more in contribution and stature in S2, especially based on the last two episodes of S1. Maybe not to the point of a Stamets or even Culber...but certainly more. Remember that Lorca and Tyler are gone and we really don't have replacements in the main cast for either. That opens room up for sure.
 
There were a lot of cool character in the big crew shot in TMP. None of them got any development. But least they got toys and cards.
 
There were a lot of cool character in the big crew shot in TMP. None of them got any development. But least they got toys and cards.
Well, TMP was trying to ape the Star Wars thing of having lots of cool looking background aliens who can be merchandized the fuck out of.
 
Well, TMP was trying to ape the Star Wars thing of having lots of cool looking background aliens who can be merchandized the fuck out of.

I still love zaranites! I confess that I loved the little background cards for the aliens from TMP and I am forever annoyed that all that came of them was a further succession of less interesting variations like Efrosians, Bolians, and Beatazoids.

For all its faults, I loved that Enterprise developed the Andorians, Tellarites, and Orions. More like that please.
 
I don't think the Chekhov's Gun trope applies here at all. If say, Ariam, at the start of an episode walked up to Burnham and made some cryptic statement, and that episode, nor any that follow, resolve the statement, that might be an example of a violation of Chekhovs' Gun. But just having Ariam appear in a scene and spout a bit of relevant technobabble, that is not an example.

I admit that Airiam was just kinda a cool-looking person who was placed in the background. But Detmer was at times treated as if she was going to be plot critical in some way. She was clearly maimed due indirectly to Burnham's actions, and seemed to hold some sort of grudge against her initially. She seemed to be friends with Ash, since she was the second person to sit with him after Tilly in the post-Voq acceptance scene. Her MU counterpart was given a lot of lines in one episode in Act II.

Regardless, from my own perspective as a viewer, I did find their treatment just a bit...weird. Basically because having these nearly silent characters who were always present kept resulting in immersion being broken for me. I did not expect Detmer, Airiam, or any of the rest to have plot arcs or anything. But I expected DIS to treat them like say Ogawa on TNG or Vorik on VOY - basically in the background, but with enough occasional incidental dialogue that they didn't feel like they were mute or something. But DIS was very odd with dialogue in general - unless it was on the bridge it seemed the only way the scriptwriters knew how to do it was dialogue between two characters at a time, which robbed a lot of scenes of a natural feeling. Indeed, a study done at the end of Act 1 found that virtually no women on the show talked with any other women besides Burnham. If you script scenes as if everything is a dyad, you're not going to want to give essentially half of a scene to someone who isn't on the main cast or a guest star.
 
I admit that Airiam was just kinda a cool-looking person who was placed in the background. But Detmer was at times treated as if she was going to be plot critical in some way.
No she wasn't. Detmer was never treated as anything more than what she was, a recurring character. Of all the bridge characters, she may have gotten the most dialogue, but her status was never anything other than the other bridge characters. That you mistook Detmer as a main cast member is on you, completely.

Maybe one of the problems here may be that you also mistakenly believed the bridge characters were "extras". So the little dialogue they got, to you, seemed like a lot, or perhaps a tease, because extras aren't usually given that much to say. And you're right (if this is what you thought), however, these characters aren't extras, they are recurring characters and recurring characters do get rudimentary dialogue.
She was clearly maimed due indirectly to Burnham's actions, and seemed to hold some sort of grudge against her initially. She seemed to be friends with Ash, since she was the second person to sit with him after Tilly in the post-Voq acceptance scene. Her MU counterpart was given a lot of lines in one episode in Act II.
Your point?
Regardless, from my own perspective as a viewer, I did find their treatment just a bit...weird. Basically because having these nearly silent characters who were always present kept resulting in immersion being broken for me. I did not expect Detmer, Airiam, or any of the rest to have plot arcs or anything. But I expected DIS to treat them like say Ogawa on TNG or Vorik on VOY - basically in the background, but with enough occasional incidental dialogue that they didn't feel like they were mute or something.
The Vorik role was a "recurring guest star", that status cast can be given major support roles or even a storyline. The Ogawa character was a recurring character, just like the DSC bridge characters. I don't recall the Ogawa character ever getting more than rudimentary dialogue, just like the DSC bridge characters. If you do, please refresh my memory.
But DIS was very odd with dialogue in general - unless it was on the bridge it seemed the only way the scriptwriters knew how to do it was dialogue between two characters at a time, which robbed a lot of scenes of a natural feeling.
Wait, weren't you the one complaining early on in season 1 that there weren't enough scenes where characters conversed one on one? Or were you the one complaining early in season 1 about there being too much group talk? Can't remember. Frankly, I think one on one conversations tend to be much more effective, dramatic, funny, etc.

Most Trek shows have had a fair amount of one on one dialogue off the bridge or in engineering. We haven't really seen DSC's engineering, so perhaps that is why group dialogue seems to be missing. DSC doesn't have any less group dialogue than any of the other Trek shows. BTW, I thionk this is another example of an inane criticism.
Indeed, a study done at the end of Act 1 found that virtually no women on the show talked with any other women besides Burnham. If you script scenes as if everything is a dyad, you're not going to want to give essentially half of a scene to someone who isn't on the main cast or a guest star.
I remember scenes where Georgiou and Burnham talked, scenes where Burnham and Tilly talked, short scenes where Burnham talked to Landry, scenes where MU Georgiou talked to Burnham, .

So. is this a different area of criticism, or does it somehow relate to the original issue of dialogue for the bridge characters? Kinda like, throw enough against the wall and see what sticks, huh? :)
 
Last edited:
No she wasn't. Detmer was never treated as anything more than what she was, a recurring character. Of all the bridge characters, she may have gotten the most dialogue, but her status was never anything other than the other bridge characters. That you mistook Detmer as a main cast member is on you, completely.

I never mistook Detmer for a main cast member. I was just saying why people could have been confused by her.

Basically, Trek has in the past had three classes of characters:

1. Main characters credited in the opening titles.
2. Guest characters who got some serious lines. In the later series (DS9 in particular) they often became recurring.
3. Uncredited, silent extras who often didn't even have their character's names mentioned in the script.

The DIS bridge characters are sort of midway between two and three. They are always around, mentioned by name, and occasionally get lines, but they have no story role. The closest analogue in a previous Trek series I can think of is Morn, but he was really a joke, not a character.

Your point?

It's just weird to have the same character constantly floating about Burnham and never really have anything come of it. If there was someone different in all of the various scenes - like say if they hadn't shown her partying in Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad - I woudln't really think about it. But she's always there, doing something (no matter how small) in every episode, which means you cannot help but wonder about her as a character.

The Vorik role was a "recurring guest star", that status cast can be given major support roles or even a storyline. The Ogawa character was a recurring character, just like the DSC bridge characters. I don't recall the Ogawa character ever getting more than rudimentary dialogue, just like the DSC bridge characters. If you do, please refresh my memory.

Lower Decks of course. IIRC Picard and Beverly gossiped about her relationship status when she was offscreen as well. Her pregnancy saved the crew in Genesis as well. She was treated as a character (albeit a secondary one), not a piece of medbay furniture.

Wait, weren't you the one complaining early on in season 1 that there weren't enough scenes where characters conversed one on one? Or were you the one complaining early in season 1 about there being too much group talk? Can't remember. Frankly, I think one on one conversations tend to be much more effective, dramatic, funny, etc.

No, not me.

I honestly didn't notice how dialogue was structured until late in the season, but once I did, I couldn't unsee it. It was particularly glaring in the second-to-last episode of the season, where essentially every single seen was a one-on-one conversation between two characters.

Obviously a lot of drama is going to involve these sort of one on one discussions. But in previous Treks there were always scenes with group dynamics. TOS's classic away missions tended to involve Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. In the later series interactions on the bridge, meeting rooms, and when dining were generally multi-character affairs. DIS used these scenes very sparingly - usually with something like Ash and Burnham in the mess hall and Tilly as the third wheel occasionally interjecting something goofy.

I remember scenes where Georgiou and Burnham talked, scenes where Burnham and Tilly talked, short scenes where Burnham talked to Landry, scenes where MU Georgiou talked to Burnham, .

The article I was linking to was saying - at least as of the end of Act 1 - that women seldom interacted on Discovery - basically never unless it was another women talking to Burnham. Which of course is understandable given it was the Micheal Burnham show to a large extent.
 
Lower Decks of course. IIRC Picard and Beverly gossiped about her relationship status when she was offscreen as well. Her pregnancy saved the crew in Genesis as well. She was treated as a character (albeit a secondary one), not a piece of medbay furniture.
All these examples are from the final season. Ogawa was introduced in the fourth, and throughout seasons 4-6 she pretty much was "sickbay furniture" as you put it. It's only in season 7 she began having story material beyond spewing bio babble.
 
Basically, Trek has in the past had three classes of characters:

1. Main characters credited in the opening titles.
2. Guest characters who got some serious lines. In the later series (DS9 in particular) they often became recurring.
3. Uncredited, silent extras who often didn't even have their character's names mentioned in the script.
In Trek, there are:
Main Cast - Obvious
Guest Star - One shot, usually name actors. Jean Simmons in TNG, Sarah Silverman in Voy, Brent Spiner, in Ent, etc.
Recurring Guest Stars - "Guest" characters who may have storylines and appear in multiple episodes. Vorik in Voy, Q in various series,
Recurring Characters - Occasionally given rudimentary dialogue usually expository. Nurse Ogawa, Nurse Chaple, Yeomen Rand, DSC bridge crew..
Extras - No lines, strictly background fill in.
The DIS bridge characters are sort of midway between two and three. They are always around, mentioned by name, and occasionally get lines, but they have no story role. The closest analogue in a previous Trek series I can think of is Morn, but he was really a joke, not a character.
No, the bridge characters are strictly recurring characters. If memory serves, I don't think their screen credits roll until the end of the episode, but I could be wrong about that. In any case, their billing does not run during they show's opening theme. They are definitely NOT Guest Stars or Recurring Guest Stars. The aforementioned are featured in episodes and are always temporary unless the actor gets a promotion to Main Cast.
It's just weird to have the same character constantly floating about Burnham and never really have anything come of it. If there was someone different in all of the various scenes - like say if they hadn't shown her partying in Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad - I woudln't really think about it. But she's always there, doing something (no matter how small) in every episode, which means you cannot help but wonder about her as a character.
I think what is confusing you is the "lower decks" format of DSC. You're used to the bridge characters being the main cast. It's been that way in every previous series. So the bridge characters may hold an allure because you're used to stories revolving around them. But in DSC, the bridge characters are there for exposition only, except captain, XO, and Science Officer Saru.

Obviously a lot of drama is going to involve these sort of one on one discussions. But in previous Treks there were always scenes with group dynamics. TOS's classic away missions tended to involve Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. In the later series interactions on the bridge, meeting rooms, and when dining were generally multi-character affairs. DIS used these scenes very sparingly - usually with something like Ash and Burnham in the mess hall and Tilly as the third wheel occasionally interjecting something goofy.
I prefer well written dialogue whether it is between 1,2, or more characters.
The article I was linking to was saying - at least as of the end of Act 1 - that women seldom interacted on Discovery - basically never unless it was another women talking to Burnham. Which of course is understandable given it was the Micheal Burnham show to a large extent.
Yeah, I didn't read the article.
 
If they were shooting 22 episodes, or even 18, and had room for filler episodes, then yes, absolutely I'd love to see more of them. But since it's just 13 episodes, unless their character is directly tied to the storyline, I don't think it's necessary.
 
It's only the first season. Even BSG waited until the second half of the second season before characters like Gaeta or Dee got anything to do other than yelling out "DRADIS contact" or "hailing frequencies open, Admiral Adama."
 
Thrones has no problem fitting in all of its characters in a similar amount of time.

Fleshing out the background people greatly helps with world building.

I've raised this point myself. GoT has very big structural differences however. The largest difference by far is that with the exception of the one big "action piece" each season there really aren't any episodes to speak of. Instead you cut back and forth between a half dozen or so different plotlines which meander through the season. Some may have big movements forward in a given episode, but others are basically just people talking in a room, which gives lots of time for character development. There is basically nothing thematically linking the different events of a given episode together.

In contrast, DIS has embraced pretty standard episode structure, even if its serialized. Nearly every episode has a crisis which must be resolved by the end of the episode. This means much more time must be set aside to plot the plot, and there isn't much time to just have two people shooting the shit and deepening their characterization.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top