Would "Voyager" have been better under an Equinox plotline?

[Guy Gardener]

Kes only gained some control because Tuvok gave her lessons, and that Warlord fellah chose to show her how to abuse her ability unconscionably, and then gained ultimate power because she was jump started by the high aggressive telepathic probes of Species 8472. Evolution is a reactionary process, that to develop their telepathic powers they would have to have been at odds with a telepathic opponent.

The Ocampa wouldn't have resisted. they would have taken it and accepted the rules of an authority figure like they had from the caretaker for the last thousand years.

 

[Anwar]

Seeing how they did have mental powers before the Caretaker and there's no sign of any enemy and Kes' powers were emerging even before Tuvok started teaching her control, I'd say the power would come back (it's only been a thousand years).

 

[Guy Gardener]

But with a child/children being dropped like clock work every 3 years and the older generations self disposing ever 9 years, the definition of a generation is somewhat shorter than what we would consider "normal". 300 generations at least. It's hard enough to measure what a generation means any more to humans since 10 years is hardly the definition of the reign of any singular age group or breeding cycle, that I would consider a human generation to be as long these days as 30 years compared to older days when young girls were expected to begin producing children shortly after puberty if they were not already married by that point.

300 human generations would take us back to before the time of Augustus, when we all looked a little different and a bout a foot shorter on average from what I hear.

 

[Anwar]

Ocampa lived for longer than 9 years before they stopped using their powers. So I think that once they began returning (I refuse to believe it was totally forced out of their DNA) they'd not only get stronger but live longer too.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You did see Fury right?

Mythologically that's gotta be wrong. Unless the show means "angry" or it's stemmed from vengeance, but she should really be called "Gorgon" in this episode. She was as Space crazy as the caretaker in two timelines. I think it's altogether possible that the Nacene increased the Ocampa's abilities which did lead to the destruction of their homeworld.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Honestly, I don't think that "Fury" should count when we discuss Kes, the Ocampa or anything related to that.

That episode was abnormal in many ways, had many flaws, didn't contribute to anything when it comes to our knowledge about the Ocampa and the reason to come up with that episode in the first place was dubious, to say the least.

 

[Akiraprise]

^^
Honestly, I don't think that "Fury" should count when we discuss Kes, the Ocampa or anything related to that.

That episode was abnormal in many ways, had many flaws, didn't contribute to anything when it comes to our knowledge about the Ocampa and the reason to come up with that episode in the first place was dubious, to say the least.

The only problem with that is, it happened. We can't really ignore "Fury" when discussing Kes and the Ocampa. Even though it depicted Kes in a bad light the episode did in fact happen. It's onscreen canon. I actually like the non-canon String Theory books explananation for why she became the way we saw her in "Fury."

How did we go from Equinox to Kes in this thread anyway.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I agree on the "String Theory" books. It was a decent try to explain the creature we saw in "Fury".

I think the best way to explain the abnormalities in that episode as to consider the creature as some being from another reality.

As for this thread, it has gone along way, from "Equinox" to "Caretaker" and to "Fury".

 

[Guy Gardener]

The thread wasn't about equinox in the beginning. It was wouldn't Voyager have been a more interesting story if it was a smaller ship with smaller military prowess and a lot more resource hungry... That question kind of answered itself. Especially since that was what the Voyager story was after 7 years of watching Picard loll about on a cruise liner that a woman captain only rates a row boat.

Could Equinox have faced off against the caretaker and the Array if it's captain had some testicals? What if Voyager was only that strong and had to rely on diplomacy and cringing because the kazon were too powerful? When they came to reclaim their slave, they would have taken recompense surely and half Janeways crew that wasn't executed would have been working in the mines if not sold off as sexual playthings at market.

Voyager was always too powerful to be thought of as a little ship.

 

[rocketscientist]

The thread wasn't about equinox in the beginning. It was wouldn't Voyager have been a more interesting story if it was a smaller ship with smaller military prowess and a lot more resource hungry... That question kind of answered itself. Especially since that was what the Voyager story was after 7 years of watching Picard loll about on a cruise liner that a woman captain only rates a row boat.

Could Equinox have faced off against the caretaker and the Array if it's captain had some testicals? What if Voyager was only that strong and had to rely on diplomacy and cringing because the kazon were too powerful? When they came to reclaim their slave, they would have taken recompense surely and half Janeways crew that wasn't executed would have been working in the mines if not sold off as sexual playthings at market.

Voyager was always too powerful to be thought of as a little ship.

It really was. If you look on the size charts, Voyager was a little bigger than the original Enterprise. I think it's probably a heavy cruiser. It's definitely not a little, or a weak, ship.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Voyager was a heavy cruiser... What was the Sovereign Class Enterprise? A ludicrously Obese Cruiser?

Voyager was a short range tactical vessel. Equinox was a science vessel. Equinox wasn't designed to fight, Voyager was. Neither were designed to be cities in space distanced from their safe harbour by 70 years.

 

[rocketscientist]

If Voyager was a heavy cruiser... What was the Sovereign Class Enterprise? A ludicrously Obese Cruiser?

Voyager was a short range tactical vessel. Equinox was a science vessel. Equinox wasn't designed to fight, Voyager was. Neither were designed to be cities in space distanced from their safe harbour by 70 years.

I don't know what they classified the Ent-E, or the Ent-D, as, but both ships are a lot larger than the original Enterprise, which was called a heavy cruiser. I just figured, because of its size and what it's mission was described as, that the Intrepid class ships were about equivalent to the original Constitution class starships, just with better technology.

Are you sure Voyager was supposed to be a short range ship?

In any case, you're right about Voyager's capabilities. It was obviously very well equipped compared to the Equinox. They got through a great many scrapes, miraculously looking spic and span and getting more torpedoes and shuttles just a week later!

 

[Guy Gardener]

I can't find a description of what Voyager is on line or in my encyclopedia.

What about Light Cruiser? Destroyer really doesn't fit.

I think the defiant was officially classified as an escort vessel. Voyager must have been a grade up from that gun ship since it had the resources to keep more than twice Defiants crew comfortable for extended periods.

Kirk and Janeways ships were the same size... But he had three times the crew. It's simply that that's only how big they could build a warship back in those days substituting maneuverability against speed against fire power against size against what sort of target that become for the enemies firepower... Compare the commercial passenger aircraft from the 1960s to the latest Air Bus? They both carry the same classification there abouts.

Kirk was given a 5 year mission and Kathryn was given a three week mission taking place a few hours away from Deep Space Nine. It's all relative. Now what I really want to get a look at was those ships mentioned in Life line which were only 5 years away from making an rendezvous with Voyager during season 6. They must ave been monsters to stop the crews from going space crazy.

 

[Anwar]

VOY was a short-range tactical vessel, a sort of Light Destroyer or Heavy Frigate or something.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thats all well and fine, but you must remember that at that point in time that the federation does not Build Warships. They are after all an intrinsically peaceful people.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[Anwar]

After Wolf 359 they did start making more combat oriented craft, VOY/Defiant and the Akira/Norway/Saber/Steamrunner/Sovereign class ships are all proof of that. No, they may not have been pure warships but they were more reliable in combat situations than prior classes had been.

Honestly, you're starting to come off as a tab obsessed with trashing VOY for not being some perfect work of God.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"starting"?

I liked Voyager because it was a turbulent story about flawed characters lead into a balls up each week by an utter monster of a woman. I thought that was just great. Imagine my surprise when I join internet land and only I alone can see the demons being creepy? The angelification of these people must have been a monumental undertaking whose derricks and construction crews sweating bullets could probably be seen from the moon...

But in this case I was talking about Sisko saying that on paper the Defiant wasn't a war ship because the Federation doesn't make Warships, and TNG Yesterdays Enterprise when Guinin said that Enterprise wasn't supposed to be a warship it was supposed to be a ship of peace. I suppose we can include Telek Romor's insistence that Voyager was scary powerful because he was from 2 decades in the past but really I was talking about the mindset of the federation populace as a whole still embodying the 80s peacenik mentality we saw so virulent in TNG detached from the naked incivility of the rest of the universe.

 

[Anwar]

It's more for political purposes that they don't call them warships but they can handle themselves in a fight as well as any of the warships from any of their enemies.

Anywho, you wouldn't call the captain of VOY a monster if Janeway had been a guy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sure I would, I just wouldn't get off on it so much.

 

[kimc]

Janeway kissed kasshak in Counterpoint to distract him during a short con to aid some refugees she was trying to keep out of a work camp. Massgrave, whatever. Janeway went up against an empire which thought it was doing right, and was willing to back up those beliefs with a legal system and an armed police force which was more than capable of crushing her because of her criminal behaviour from their perspective which is their right to hold up since it was all happening in their territory.

If you follow this logic then Hitler had the right to round up the Jews. Are you sure you want to go there?