Would "Voyager" have been better under an Equinox plotline?

[Guy Gardener]

I love this argument. the possible moves and counter moves are just wonderful watching unusual combinations and... Once more into the breech!

As for the debate about if Janeway did the right thing to destroy the Array, I think that she did the right thing.

As she said to Tuvok. "We didn't want to be involved but we are".

That's a cop out. She had namby pamby feelings that made her go against the Prime Directive. She is always involved, but it's her job to extricate herself as soon as it becomes clear that she has to because the local powers have jurisdiction over their own territories, which is NOT what she did. It definitely becomes an issue of what really "involved" means? No I'm not blaming it on her lack of a Y Chromosome. But accepting advice from someone that tried to rape your entire crew? Seven killed a guy who just stole some nanoprobes. Talk about being in a state of denial.

If Voyager hadn't been around. The Caretaker would have destroyed the Array and the Kazon wouldn't have known anything about it before the Array exploded.

The array didn't have shields. Or wasn't using them. Otherwise Janeway couldn't transport across in the heat of a battle. The Caretaker was losing it and suggesting he was capable of erecting the most basic defense is laughable considering his plan at the moment was to draw in unwitting beings and fuck them in the hopes that MONTHS after he dies one of his progeny with no predilection at all to follow any of his Jor-el like after thoughts of becoming the only begotten son turned hero to the Ocampa without the the technology to back up such a position anyway... He was quite mad and incompetent.

We can't assume the Caretaker could have fended off a Kazon attack. They'd been planing their raid on the array for long enough that the speed up pulses between the array and the planet was a tell tale note that something was up which they were cunning enough to notice that could have had all shorts of shit up their sleeves prepared for their assault of the caretaker. He had the fire power to attack their settlement on the surface at the same time he destroyed his machinery near the surface of the planet, and in the past he must have done something like that or else they wouldn't have been so cautious... but at the moment he left them alone entirely perhaps because he was in his death throws or perhaps he was scanning the heavens for new aliens to rape.

As it happened now, Voyager was attacked by the Kazon.

Neelix opened fire first on the surface after lying to Janeway about the political structure of the area and then later she called Javin names because he was wary of imperialists taking what was his with their screams of manifest destiny, ask some First Nation Folkes what they think about Post Offices sometimes.

It wasn't impossible to be diplomatic in this situation but Janeway was rushing for time because she didn't think Javin could secure the Array or wouldn't sare if he was allowed to take point, and she was even willing to give it to him after they had used it to get home dismantling any caretaker booby traps to ensure they could use it safely. North Korea just LOVES being grouped up with the rest of the Axis of evil. Don't call people with weapons of mass destruction names. I suppose if the Trabe hadn't kicked the shit out of them then they would be a more trusting lot.

When Chakotay rammed the Kazon cruiser, it crashed into the Array, damaging the self-destruct program. What Janeway did was to correct what Voyager may have damaged by getting involved in the situation.

Got a fact for you. That is what happened. But according to the dialog in the script, Janeway wasn't told that's what happened, and she had no way of know that's what happened since everything happened in real time kinda for no secret conversation to be wedged inbetween scenes explaining that Chuckles was responsible for the destruction of the self destruct.

If Janeway hadn't destroyed the Array, the Kazon would have boarded it, shut down the forcefields which protected the Ocampa underground city. They would have annihilated the Ocampa or turned them into slaves and believe me, slavery is worse than death. Since Janeway would have been responsible for that by creating a situation in which the self-destruct program was damaged, accidentally or not, she couldn't allow it. She had to correct what she and the crew may have done wrong. So they were already involved.

Again that's comparative morality. Her definition of Wrong is racist whether her culture is better or not, which is easy enough to judge sometimes but hard to justify. The kazon had already claimed the Ocampan Homeworld and the Caretaker had chosen to do nothing about it when he clearly could have if he was in his right mind with an IQ in double digits. We saw what 12 kazons? Voyager was fighting a city ship and two shuttles. but even then , how many hundreds of thousands of Ocampa were living on that planet that we are we supposed to think that the Kazon could have done anything but cherry pick from them? They did not have the resources to process a population of that magnitude unless the Ocampa were already a hairs bredth from extinction and there were only the couple dozen left which we saw... At which you have to wonder exactly how crazy Caretaker was not to move them to a nicer planet with a murdered biosphere?

I also think that it was impossible for the Voyager crew to use the program for sending them home. As Tuvok stated, it would take several hours to do that and during that time, Voyager might have been destroyed by the Kazon.

Surely the issue that has always been at hand is that the device which brought Voyager across 70 thousand light years in the blink of an eye as gently as it did (And gentler still if not used by a moron who warns the crew to brace itself.) could also be used to shunt another ship just a couple light years with hardly as light a touch... Or do you think it is harder to turn it on without plotting a course with no concern as to the saftey of the target? The Array used by some one with a little military backbone could be wiping out fleets and cities and possibly entire planets if we're to consider what would happen if Janeway moved a billion tonnes of stellar matter flat dab onto the surface of a world (Unpopulated perhaps? She's not a monster yet.).

If the Caretaker had no (activated) defenses against transporters, then exactly how vulnerable do you think those Kazon ships were to that technology that their crews or warp cores could have been totally plucked? Why did Janeway underestimate their ignorance for applications of the transporter? She could have owned them with trick that haven't worked in the AQ for 260 years.

Jabin told Janeway that he had called for additional ships. The Kazon would have taken over the Array and prevented the Voyager crew from getting home.

More shuttles? And how long? Voyager was fraked and was operating at maybe %10 efficiency (later she took on ten ships at once with barely much effort, then she could handle just one and some support crafts, ergo &10.) so Janeway didn't dare to assume that her ship was still 10 times more powerful than even the most aggressive kazon Vessel. She probably didn't account for how much slower the kazon fleet was since it took her a day to get from the Array to Ocampa in her fist trip.

She didn't know the rules to the game.

Besides. I'd always wondered why Kes didn't say "You can't destroy the Array. It's our legacy. The Caretaker destroyed our world. he owes us. It's ours."

 

[Anwar]

Dude, you're forgetting that when they were pulled into the DQ by the Array it damaged the ship and killed a lot of people. Using it to go back would've done the same.

 

[smeos]

If nobody had died making it back to the AQ manually, your argument may have some merit.

They were unprepared for the shock of being flung across the galaxy the first time. The second time around, I'm assuming that they would have braced for impact or thrown on a seatbelt or something.

 

[DanCPA]

3. Kes- Skip the silly life-span and you have a great character, one of Star trek's best.

I would have liked to have seen the life span be a serious issue... In the 3 years on the show she should have gone from being a teenager to being a middle aged woman... I would have enjoyed seeing her age on the series, as was hinted at in Before and After

 

[Lynx]

3. Kes- Skip the silly life-span and you have a great character, one of Star trek's best.

I would have liked to have seen the life span be a serious issue... In the 3 years on the show she should have gone from being a teenager to being a middle aged woman... I would have enjoyed seeing her age on the series, as was hinted at in Before and After

Nah, I'm not too fond of that scenario. It would have been too soppy.

Kes was great in the first three seasons. Why change a winning formula?

 

[Akiraprise]

3. Kes- Skip the silly life-span and you have a great character, one of Star trek's best.

I would have liked to have seen the life span be a serious issue... In the 3 years on the show she should have gone from being a teenager to being a middle aged woman... I would have enjoyed seeing her age on the series, as was hinted at in Before and After

I agree. They could have used her aging gracefully in the show, such as we saw in Before and After, to tell some interesting stories. I'm sure that was the plan. Star Trek shows were lasting seven years, Kes was to live for seven years. A fitting end for such a noble character would have been her sacrificing herself to get Voyager home at the end in some way.
(I just saw Warlord on Spike yesterday, still one of my favorite episodes.)

 

[Lynx]

I love this argument. the possible moves and counter moves are just wonderful watching unusual combinations and... Once more into the breech!

As for the debate about if Janeway did the right thing to destroy the Array, I think that she did the right thing.

As she said to Tuvok. "We didn't want to be involved but we are".

That's a cop out. She had namby pamby feelings that made her go against the Prime Directive. She is always involved, but it's her job to extricate herself as soon as it becomes clear that she has to because the local powers have jurisdiction over their own territories, which is NOT what she did. It definitely becomes an issue of what really "involved" means? No I'm not blaming it on her lack of a Y Chromosome. But accepting advice from someone that tried to rape your entire crew? Seven killed a guy who just stole some nanoprobes. Talk about being in a state of denial.

If Voyager hadn't been around. The Caretaker would have destroyed the Array and the Kazon wouldn't have known anything about it before the Array exploded.

The array didn't have shields. Or wasn't using them. Otherwise Janeway couldn't transport across in the heat of a battle. The Caretaker was losing it and suggesting he was capable of erecting the most basic defense is laughable considering his plan at the moment was to draw in unwitting beings and fuck them in the hopes that MONTHS after he dies one of his progeny with no predilection at all to follow any of his Jor-el like after thoughts of becoming the only begotten son turned hero to the Ocampa without the the technology to back up such a position anyway... He was quite mad and incompetent.

We can't assume the Caretaker could have fended off a Kazon attack. They'd been planing their raid on the array for long enough that the speed up pulses between the array and the planet was a tell tale note that something was up which they were cunning enough to notice that could have had all shorts of shit up their sleeves prepared for their assault of the caretaker. He had the fire power to attack their settlement on the surface at the same time he destroyed his machinery near the surface of the planet, and in the past he must have done something like that or else they wouldn't have been so cautious... but at the moment he left them alone entirely perhaps because he was in his death throws or perhaps he was scanning the heavens for new aliens to rape.



Neelix opened fire first on the surface after lying to Janeway about the political structure of the area and then later she called Javin names because he was wary of imperialists taking what was his with their screams of manifest destiny, ask some First Nation Folkes what they think about Post Offices sometimes.

It wasn't impossible to be diplomatic in this situation but Janeway was rushing for time because she didn't think Javin could secure the Array or wouldn't sare if he was allowed to take point, and she was even willing to give it to him after they had used it to get home dismantling any caretaker booby traps to ensure they could use it safely. North Korea just LOVES being grouped up with the rest of the Axis of evil. Don't call people with weapons of mass destruction names. I suppose if the Trabe hadn't kicked the shit out of them then they would be a more trusting lot.



Got a fact for you. That is what happened. But according to the dialog in the script, Janeway wasn't told that's what happened, and she had no way of know that's what happened since everything happened in real time kinda for no secret conversation to be wedged inbetween scenes explaining that Chuckles was responsible for the destruction of the self destruct.



Again that's comparative morality. Her definition of Wrong is racist whether her culture is better or not, which is easy enough to judge sometimes but hard to justify. The kazon had already claimed the Ocampan Homeworld and the Caretaker had chosen to do nothing about it when he clearly could have if he was in his right mind with an IQ in double digits. We saw what 12 kazons? Voyager was fighting a city ship and two shuttles. but even then , how many hundreds of thousands of Ocampa were living on that planet that we are we supposed to think that the Kazon could have done anything but cherry pick from them? They did not have the resources to process a population of that magnitude unless the Ocampa were already a hairs bredth from extinction and there were only the couple dozen left which we saw... At which you have to wonder exactly how crazy Caretaker was not to move them to a nicer planet with a murdered biosphere?

I also think that it was impossible for the Voyager crew to use the program for sending them home. As Tuvok stated, it would take several hours to do that and during that time, Voyager might have been destroyed by the Kazon.

Surely the issue that has always been at hand is that the device which brought Voyager across 70 thousand light years in the blink of an eye as gently as it did (And gentler still if not used by a moron who warns the crew to brace itself.) could also be used to shunt another ship just a couple light years with hardly as light a touch... Or do you think it is harder to turn it on without plotting a course with no concern as to the saftey of the target? The Array used by some one with a little military backbone could be wiping out fleets and cities and possibly entire planets if we're to consider what would happen if Janeway moved a billion tonnes of stellar matter flat dab onto the surface of a world (Unpopulated perhaps? She's not a monster yet.).

If the Caretaker had no (activated) defenses against transporters, then exactly how vulnerable do you think those Kazon ships were to that technology that their crews or warp cores could have been totally plucked? Why did Janeway underestimate their ignorance for applications of the transporter? She could have owned them with trick that haven't worked in the AQ for 260 years.

Jabin told Janeway that he had called for additional ships. The Kazon would have taken over the Array and prevented the Voyager crew from getting home.

More shuttles? And how long? Voyager was fraked and was operating at maybe %10 efficiency (later she took on ten ships at once with barely much effort, then she could handle just one and some support crafts, ergo &10.) so Janeway didn't dare to assume that her ship was still 10 times more powerful than even the most aggressive kazon Vessel. She probably didn't account for how much slower the kazon fleet was since it took her a day to get from the Array to Ocampa in her fist trip.

She didn't know the rules to the game.

Besides. I'd always wondered why Kes didn't say "You can't destroy the Array. It's our legacy. The Caretaker destroyed our world. he owes us. It's ours."

Just have to add some comments here:
As for "accepting advices from someone who tried to rape the entire crew", I don't think Janeway liked that. But if she had abandoned the Caretaker and let the Kazon invade the underground city, now that would have been a violation to all that Starfleet stands for. She knew that Voyager's had interefered in an ongoing process and she corrected that.

The Array must have had some sort of protection, otherwise the Kazon would have taken over it a long time ago. They were very eager to get access to the water in the underground city, they would have used every opportunity to shut down the forcefield which protected the city.

Neelix opened fire in an attempt to rescue Kes and the rest of the crew as well. As we could see, the Kazon did actually attack them first, abducting Neelix and taking the weapons from the Voyager crew.

The dialogue in the script obviously doesn't fit with what happened on the screen because in the episode someone (I think it was Paris) contacted Janeway via the combadge and told her that the Kazon had collided with the Array.

As for transporting them back, I can only quote Tuvok's statement that it would take several hours to make that program working. Since more Kazon ships of the same gigantic type which Chakotay destroyed by ramming it were on their way, Janeway realized that they simply didn't have the time to do so and she also decided to re-start the process which they had interrupted in the first place which was the destruction of the Array.

As for my thoughts about the Caretaker as a not so smart being, please look up a thread I started about that some time ago on this forum named "The Caretaker-not the smartest being". I do agree that he should have moved the Ocampa to another planet if he couldn't repair the damaged atmosphere. But that was no reason for letting the Kazon take control over the array and annihilate the Ocampa.

As for Kes not protesting when Janeway decided to destroy the Array, why should she? I guess that she was happy that Janeway did decide to destroy the array so that the Kazon couldn't get access to the city and murder or enslave its inhabitants.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But the last conversation with the Caretaker where Janeway gives him the "teach them how to fish speech" (right before she runs away leaving them to starve in a box on a dead world surrounded by kazon sects.), she reverses his every standpoint and moral founding. He is utterly blown away by her every rumination of logic and bows to her fortune cookie wisdom. Caretaker can't form even a simple argument to justify what he has been doing there for the last thousand years. The old bugger must have been spacecrazy senile or both. Janeway proved that you can't trust the caretaker's judgment or his reasoning. It's all flawed. But then she accepts his assessment of the Kazon as gospel after he was wrong about everything else?

Sure they're bastards, maybe they'll use the city as a ramp camp until they get bored, and maybe they won't but where's the profit in genocide? One of the things I learnt from the movie Conspiracy which was about a meeting where the head Nazis colluded to discuss the methodology of exterminating the Jews is that genocide is difficult. Tediously difficult.

The array's controls seemed to be telepathically linked to the Caretakers half dead and totally crazy mind. If half his brain wasn't dead and totally crazy his control of the Array would probably be precise enough to swat the kazon effortlessly. Wrap the bridge controls in an inch of cling wrap and we'll just see how well Janeway can battle these space hobos. The Kazon had been waiting for this opportunity for a while just like America waited for the collapse of the Soviet Union before they flooded the place with blue jeans and rock'n'roll music... And where would America have been if they didn't "liberate" the German rocketry scientists after WWII rather than send them off to the world court for creating weapons of considerable destruction for obviously disturbed people.

Neelix knew he was meeting up with people with the mentality of what Kathryn would have described as Klingon-like. He owed them money too. And he planned to steal a slave they owned and valued. He knew there was going to be a short hostage situation and he knew he would have to open fire and he knew they were going to chase all of them... Don't blame the lion for licking your nads if you're going to insert your love tackle in it's mouth. There was no part of that encounter that didn't go as expected right down to Janeway being completely blindsided by meeting up with lions when she expecting cows. the Kazon were outsmarted, out gunned and overpowered by Neelix's wit alone, but yet they'll surely exterminate the Ocampa for what reason with out being convinced otherwise?

Exactly, Chacotay said the Kazon rammed the array, but he didn't admit that they only did so because he rammed them. And even if she did know, that's still pretty weak. As far as Kathryn was concerned, it was part of the kazon plan. Hell they'd been scanning the array for years, and really, how much more difficult was it to find a self destruct a boob like Caretaker could use, than to make sure Voyagers secondary power couplings were off line the next time Kathryn tried to initiate the self destruct (Okay, maybe that was mostly Seska. But she was still limited by their antiquated childlike technology while trying to bring down Voyager.) while Kazon boarding parties were streaming into every orrifice of Voyager?

She didn't restart the self destruct process. She fired a tricobolt torpedo at the Array. She had the super weapon to end that fight quick smart before it built up any steam if she's just targeted the Kazon in the first salvo, rather than array ten minutes later. If those Kazon really were in the habit of raping a world and annihilating cow like species willy nilly then what possible reservations should Janeway have had in not spanking the hell out of the Kazon for what they might do and what they had probably done (if anything?) for the Caretaker to form such a low opinion of them? The Japanese REALLY didn't know that the US only had two atomic bombs, and probably kicked themselves afterwards for thinking any more cities were targeted. Do you really think the kazon are dumb enough to throw them selves at a species strong enough to destroy them without a thought or exertion? (Superior numbers and guile does even things out a little, but Janeway wasn't scary enough or possessing the bodycount to chalk the whole thought up to bad karma, so they kept coming wave after wave.)

 

[Lynx]

But the last conversation with the Caretaker where Janeway gives him the "teach them how to fish speech" (right before she runs away leaving them to starve in a box on a dead world surrounded by kazon sects.), she reverses his every standpoint and moral founding. He is utterly blown away by her every rumination of logic and bows to her fortune cookie wisdom. Caretaker can't form even a simple argument to justify what he has been doing there for the last thousand years. The old bugger must have been spacecrazy senile or both. Janeway proved that you can't trust the caretaker's judgment or his reasoning. It's all flawed. But then she accepts his assessment of the Kazon as gospel after he was wrong about everything else?

Sure they're bastards, maybe they'll use the city as a ramp camp until they get bored, and maybe they won't but where's the profit in genocide? One of the things I learnt from the movie Conspiracy which was about a meeting where the head Nazis colluded to discuss the methodology of exterminating the Jews is that genocide is difficult. Tediously difficult.

The array's controls seemed to be telepathically linked to the Caretakers half dead and totally crazy mind. If half his brain wasn't dead and totally crazy his control of the Array would probably be precise enough to swat the kazon effortlessly. Wrap the bridge controls in an inch of cling wrap and we'll just see how well Janeway can battle these space hobos. The Kazon had been waiting for this opportunity for a while just like America waited for the collapse of the Soviet Union before they flooded the place with blue jeans and rock'n'roll music... And where would America have been if they didn't "liberate" the German rocketry scientists after WWII rather than send them off to the world court for creating weapons of considerable destruction for obviously disturbed people.

Neelix knew he was meeting up with people with the mentality of what Kathryn would have described as Klingon-like. He owed them money too. And he planned to steal a slave they owned and valued. He knew there was going to be a short hostage situation and he knew he would have to open fire and he knew they were going to chase all of them... Don't blame the lion for licking your nads if you're going to insert your love tackle in it's mouth. There was no part of that encounter that didn't go as expected right down to Janeway being completely blindsided by meeting up with lions when she expecting cows. the Kazon were outsmarted, out gunned and overpowered by Neelix's wit alone, but yet they'll surely exterminate the Ocampa for what reason with out being convinced otherwise?

Exactly, Chacotay said the Kazon rammed the array, but he didn't admit that they only did so because he rammed them. And even if she did know, that's still pretty weak. As far as Kathryn was concerned, it was part of the kazon plan. Hell they'd been scanning the array for years, and really, how much more difficult was it to find a self destruct a boob like Caretaker could use, than to make sure Voyagers secondary power couplings were off line the next time Kathryn tried to initiate the self destruct (Okay, maybe that was mostly Seska. But she was still limited by their antiquated childlike technology while trying to bring down Voyager.) while Kazon boarding parties were streaming into every orrifice of Voyager?

She didn't restart the self destruct process. She fired a tricobolt torpedo at the Array. She had the super weapon to end that fight quick smart before it built up any steam if she's just targeted the Kazon in the first salvo, rather than array ten minutes later. If those Kazon really were in the habit of raping a world and annihilating cow like species willy nilly then what possible reservations should Janeway have had in not spanking the hell out of the Kazon for what they might do and what they had probably done (if anything?) for the Caretaker to form such a low opinion of them? The Japanese REALLY didn't know that the US only had two atomic bombs, and probably kicked themselves afterwards for thinking any more cities were targeted. Do you really think the kazon are dumb enough to throw them selves at a species strong enough to destroy them without a thought or exertion? (Superior numbers and guile does even things out a little, but Janeway wasn't scary enough or possessing the bodycount to chalk the whole thought up to bad karma, so they kept coming wave after wave.)

You are not correct about "leaving them in a box on a dead world". According to the book "Caretaker" by L.A Graf (which is based on the script for the episode) the Caretaker did download his entire knowledge to the Ocampa before the Array was destroyed. That would give them a chance to develope and maybe be able to defend themselves. Besides that, "living in a box on a dead world" is better than to be a slave or dead.

As for genocide, unfortunately it seems to be very simple. The reason that Hitler "only" succeded in annihilating 6-7 million Jews was because of the ongoing war. Imagine if there had been peace and no one would have "disturbed" them. And there are others as well. Stalin succeded in murdering 40-60 million Russians and other etnic groups in the former Soviet Union. Mao was responsible for the death of about 80 million Chinese during his reign. Pol Pot wiped out on third of Cambodia's population, not to mention Slobodan Milosevic's hordes or the Ayatollahs in Iran who have been "succesful" in wiping out people. There are probably others as well.

OK, the Kazon were waiting for the old geezer to die, that's possible. But the Array would have been destroyed before the Kazon had a chance to invade it. Voyager's interference was about to stop the Array from being destroyed but Janeway corrected that.

Neelix "wasn't planning to steal a slave they owned and valued". He was planning to rescue and unlucky person who had had the bad luck of encountering the Kazon and being enslaved by them and we could see on the bruises on Kes's face how much the Kazon valued their slaves.

Chakotay didn't have to tell Janeway that the Kazon cruiser rammed the Array because of his actions. Even a five-yar old kid would realize that it was a result of the battle going on outside the Array.

She didn't restart the self-destruction proces because it was damaged and couldn't be restarted. So she fired a torpedo at the Array and the result was the same. As for Janeway not beating the s*** out of the Kazon if they tried to invade the underground city, why should she. She only had to destroy the array to prevent the Kazon to take control of it and get access to the city. Janeway's main concern was to get out of there and trying to find a way home and considering the amount of time it took to repair the damage to the ship (it's a timespace of more than a month between the events in "Caretaker" and the events in "Parallax" according to the Stardates) Janeway probably realized that a continuing war with the Kazon wasn't the best idea. I also guess that such an action would have been violating the Prime Directive more than simply blowing up the Array.

Asfor the Ocampa, they are not a "cow like" species. Somewhat controlled maybe but not stupid.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe I was gruff, and I should have said that because of where the story telling finished in Caretaker that it appeared that Janeway moved on without checking in on the Ocampa. I mean she's not a monster, it's only reasonable to assume that she had to make sure they were okay and that their culture had a longer expectant future than just 5 years, even if some vast kazon fleet was bearing downing on Voyager, which needed three weeks in someones spacedock... The story was left too open for my liking. Seriously Voyager did need to land and get some serious repairs done, and they might as well do it while taking advantage of Ocampan hospitality, even if if it left them open to Kazon hospitality, who did according to Neelix rule that world. Ocampa was a Kazon world in kazon space... Did she stay or did she go now, if she stayed there would be trouble, if she goed there would be double.

Graff was just pulling stuff out of his ass. There was no mention of educating the Ocampa in the finished script and Caretaker died quite soon after Janeway convinced him it might be a good idea to upskill them. From rereading (some of) the script a few seconds ago, the Caretaker's issue with the kazon was that they were INDIRECTLY going to kill the Ocampa by "stealing" the Ocampa's water and then the Ocampa would die of thirst immediately and not as his plan held in a couple years, which was their eventual and inescapable fate since they were incapable of looking after themselves. Is it my imagination or since the surface wasn't being used they could have covered it in solar mirrors and generated all the power they needed if the kazon didn't loot the world they already claimed as their own, a claim which was at least recognized by the Talaxians.

On the other hand, if all blue prints for all of the Nacene's technology were locked up in the city... Then the Kazon would be in more of a position to exploit it, and the Ocampa would only be in a position to sell the tech since they had no space program, resources or infrastructure. The kazon were the obvious buyers even if they couldn't be trusted because the Ocampa were incapable of keeping that tech out of the hands of the mildest thug, so why do you think such a prize would do anything other than make them more of a target?

The Caretaker was a wuss. He wasn't going to blow up the Array until after he died. There was more than enough time for them to get on board and at the least "talk" to Caretaker if Voyager hadn't provoked a fight. Hell, a smart maje would have offered to become Caretaker in exchange for the Caretakers Technology. It seems like a fair trade. Before that moment, how many kazon did Caretaker rape? How many offered it freely in exchange for being the regent to god like progeny? Janeway considered the route with Q. Of course they wouldn't have been in a position to attack the array if they were not chasing Janeway who had Neelix, who had shot at them and blew up all that water he owed them, so if they did have a plan to take the array they weren't prepared to deploy yet and so Caretaker would have died before they might have been able to do the job. So yes they never would have got the array without Janeway, but considering that they did notice that the pulse were increasing in frequency, it does suggesting that they were preparing to mount another expedition "soon". And what would have happened if Jabin had accepted Janeway's offer to have the array fro themselves as salvage if she could use it to get home first? Kathryn and Jabin entering the Array and conversing with Caretaker as allies? The issue was water and only water, the Ocampa were surplus to requirements.

Neelix "wasn't planning to steal a slave they owned and valued". He was planning to rescue and unlucky person who had had the bad luck of encountering the Kazon and being enslaved by them and we could see on the bruises on Kes's face how much the Kazon valued their slaves.

She was a terrible slave, and until she accepted the consequences of her lot in life, they would continue to beat her and worse unless she became a good slave. I don't think slavery is cool, but it is allowable under the legal system used by the kazon which says what is is. If Neelix had stolen Jabin's shoes, it would have been to the same account that Jabin is legally allowed to own slaves and other property inside Kazon space and the law will back up his property rights... Janeway supposedly respects the rules of other cultures, just because she doesn't believe in slavery it doesn't mean it doesn't happen and is approved of by entire cultures. in this case Neelix did the wrong thing and most certainly broke the law of the land for the right reasons which doesn't mean he shouldn't be accountable for his actions if he can't escape justice swiftly enough no matter how stupid the laws are.

Voyager could have produced more than enough water to buy Kes. And if Janeway was told she was going to be dealing with armed assholes, then she would have been prepared for armed assholes rather than posturing in some optimistic open handed first contact protocol written up by peacniks concerned with offending the locals more than the saftey of Line officers. Instead, Neelix decided to steal her. Later in Flesh and Blood which goes well against most of season one, janeway admits and wonders if it was naughty that Voyager traded replicator technology with near strangers on a constant basis to survive in the DQ which is just as bad as what Ransom did, that they wouldn't be interested in her replicator technology if they already had it for themselves.

A 5 year old kid wouldn't know if they rammed the array as a tactic or if they rammed the array because they lost control of their ship. Not how in Maneuvers the kazon rammed Voyager with a breaching pod and raided the bugger oh so successfully. They rammed Voyager on purpose and considering they don't have transporters it could be a standard go to measure in there arsenal.

They do what they're told and don't stray from the path with the tiniest of exceptions. the caretaker had kept that civilization static fro a thousand years. How are they not a heard beast? Kept inside a cage and fed by a master and allowed no scope of existence, that the only avenue for exploration is attempted suicide climbing to an inhospitable surface and maybe if they're lucky caught and tended to by the local warlords. Maybe if they lived longer they would realize how caged they are and stop revering the fellow responsible for tending the cage like a dog sleeping at the foot of his masters bed.

 

[Lynx]

^^
As for what Graf wrote, I still believe it was based on the original script since the book was published around the same time or shortly after the episode was aired. Anyway, I think it was a plausible explanation. By the way, Graf is actually two female persons.

I don't think that the Ocampa would be stupid enough to sell the technology to the Kazon. That would be to put the head under the guillotine. If they are smart, they would use it to wipe out the Kazon from their planet.

The Caretaker may have been a wuss but he was smart enough not to let the Kazon enter the Array or sell out anything to them because he did know that they would use it to enslave the Ocampa. As for negotiations with the Kazon, Jabin did make it clear that he wasn't intersted in any negotiations.

Slavery is a disgust and the way the Kazon treated Kes was disgusting and clearly did show the standard of their society. Neelix did the right thing to liberate Kes. A shame that Jabin didn't get the same beating that he had given Kes.

Neelix did actually try to buy Kes from the Kazon. He said something about "giving them water for this fraudy little thing". But Jabin wasn't interested at all. He only wanted "the technology which could make water out of thin air" even though Janeway tried to tell him that it was integrated into the ship.

If the Ocampa are regarded as a "heard beast" and so, well then we are in real trouble too. Just look at us and how we are manipulated by our false politicians, greedy businessmen and charlatans of all sorts while we still try to tell ourselves that we are free and are living in the best of worlds. All that while the world around us is slowly dying from pollution, over-population, wars and poverty. The Ocampa weren't even close to that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When I say "sell"... think "pay off" or "bribe" ...it's not that different from when Archer gave another species Holo technology to the Klingon's in that episode where Tucker got lucky(An act he should ave lost his ship for the same as Janeway when she gave holo technology to the Hirogen.)... remember the Bazan (sp?) wormhole (TNG: The Price.)? Space critters couldn't exploit the natural resource for themselves so they leased it. Of course no one had a gun to their head and you have to remember... They can't use the hypothetical schematics and they weren't left with any means to defend themselves, all that's going to happen is that they run out of water and die of thirst.

Two women you say? I got that Jim Morrison song LA Woman bouncing around my head suddenly.

Oh. As soon as the advertising companies. publicists and spin doctors go out of business, I'll change my opinions on the human race... But the difference is that we're herding ourselves... Which would indicate levels of humanity and citizenship.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I did only watch 4 episodes of "Enterprise" before giving up so I can't comment on Archer's actions. As for the Kazon, I still think they would use the technology to conquer the Ocampa. Jabin's actions when neelix offered them water for Kes showed that he was ready to take what he could without paying for it if possible.

As for the Ocampa, I do think that they could manage to survive. Daggin's group of people, "those who had broken from tradition" were a promising group who could get influence during a crisis and with the technology from the Caretaker they would be able to survive for a long time. Maybe they would get some assistance from the Ocampa on Suspiria's array too, who knows.

The Doors were a great band. Actually, your comment made me reach for a Doors CD and now I got "LA Woman" blasting out from the speakers.

Well, not blasting actually. It's Sunday morning where I live when I'm writing this and I don't want to disturb my neighbors more than I have to.

As for "hearding ourselves". Are we?

 

[spoon]

Too bad it was on network TV. It would have been much edgier on a different channel.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Jabin only said that he was "interested" in the replicator/transporter technology because you must admit it is a trillion times more valuable than a skip full of water. Why the hell wouldn't he want it? Quark would have sold it to them no questions asked. Imagine what he would have paid for it if it was for sale?

Janeway not only cockblocked him by saying no sale, but she lied in claiming that the technology was intergrated into her ship. Which was either lying for the Prime Directive or bad writing from the view point of what was possible with this imaginary science that Janeway couldn't have replicated a replicator inside of a couple minutes or handed over a pad explaining the under lying principles if she was so inclined to share technology with these people... Who were barbarians. But what sort of criteria did aliens have to meet for Janeway to sell them replicators (Flesh and Blood. They did it all the time.)? And if Kirk could make flint lock weapons for an agrarian culture to kill their nieghbours, then Janeway still had access to the underlying principles From Kirk and Archer's Food synthesizer technology or some thing even more crude which will only make water and not weapons and other dangerous substances.

Surely Janeway should have known that all the little savage child races want replicators and transporters? It was damn foolish to show off like that when dealing with obvious rogues and thieves... Again forewarning from Neelix would haver helped.

Which brings us back to Seska. She gave the Kazon replicator technology without Janeway even noticing, integrated my ass, and sure enough they killed themselves because of incompetence, but the transaction established a trusting healthy and symbiotic relationship between Seska and the Kazon in that they respected her ability to give or not give them technology (Since she didn't give them jack in the long run and still she climbed the ladder up the ziggeral lickity split.) and said relationship still all tilted to one side that Seska ended up ruling them pug uglies after a fashion with in a matter of weeks because probably of their pack mentality that they bow to the alpha character.

Janeway could have had just as friendly a relationship with the kazon if she hadn't pissed them off from the get go, which albeit isn't that difficult... Oh, and Janeway would probably have had to sleep with Kullah. I'm sure she could have rocked his world without gagging too much.

That's what I love about Weeds. Every time Nancy gets into some serious trouble. She just takes her pants off and then there's no more problems except another guy lolling around utterly in love with her.

You only saw four episodes of Enterprise? You lucky bastard. I envy you. Though I think I was referrencing the fourth episode. Never mind.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Quark would have sold anything to anyone if the price was right. But Janeway wasn't Quark and Quark wasn't Starfleet either.

I don't think Janeway lied when she said that the thechnology was integrated into her ship. My assumption is that the ship could produce its own water but I fid it hard tosee how that technology could have been exported to the Kazon, even if Janeway had wanted that.

As for contradicting events in the later seasons who were plagued with erratic writing, well that was Voyager's biggest problem.

I can agree that Neelix in some ways tricked Janeway into the situation, by advising her to create water to bargain with and that he did, as Tuvok pointed out, act irresponsible and should have told Janeway and the others what he planned. On the other hand, he couldn't be sure that janeway would help him ifhe did tell her what he was planning either.

And once again, Janeway tred to negotiate with the Kazon, offering them water for information about how to get to the underground city (and maybe for Kes as well) but the Kazon didn't seem to eager to negotiate.

The same for "friendly relationships with the Kazon". Janeway tried several times, first with Culluh and the Nistrim when they did show up, then with that peace conference which the Trabe turned into something direct opposite. The problem was that it was actually hard to get along with the Kazon.

Sleeping with Culluh? Now that would have been rather cheap, wouldn't it?

As for Seska, she was Cardassian and had a different mentality.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She made out with a guy to rescue some refugees and acted like a whore to break into a prison... But I'm sure I was trying to make a funny, not that Kullah couldn't romance her given half the chance, but he would have had a difficult time negotiating the cobwebs while trying to find her sexual organ. If he was just washed his hair I'm sure she would at least be spoon feeding him pecan pie as a gesture of sensuality...

PARIS: Why would anyone want to live in a place like this?
NEELIX: The rich cormaline deposits are very much in demand.
CHAKOTAY: The Ocampa use it for barter?
NEELIX: Not the Ocampa. The Kazon-Ogla.
JANEWAY: The Kazon-Ogla? Who are the Kazon-Ogla?
NEELIX: They are. Kazon sects control this part of the quadrant. Some have food, some have ore, some have water. They all trade and they all kill each other for it.
JANEWAY: I thought you said the Ocampa had our people.
NEELIX: My friends! It's good to see you again! I must speak with your Maje, the ever-wise Jabin! Very amusing.
KAZON: Destroy him.
NEELIX: Very amusing. I, uh... I enjoy a joke as much as the next man. Jabin! My old friend! Water. Water, Jabin. I have water to replace all that I borrowed. Show them Mister Paris. Their ship has technology that makes water out of thin air!
JABIN: You have more?
JANEWAY: Janeway to Voyager. Energize. There's more where that came from, if you can help us.
JABIN: How can we help someone so powerful they can create water out of thin air?
JANEWAY: This man led us here suggesting we might find a people called the Ocampa. Do you know where they are?
JABIN: Ocampa. She is Ocampa. Why would you be interested in such worthless creatures? They live only nine years. They make poor servants. We caught her when she wandered to the surface.
JANEWAY: To the surface? You mean they live underground?
JABIN: The entity in space that gives them food and power also gives them sole access to the only water on this world, two miles below the surface.
JANEWAY: This same entity has abducted two of our people. We believe they might be with the Ocampa.
JABIN: There's no way to get to them. We tried. The entity has established some kind of subterranean barrier we can not penetrate.
CHAKOTAY: But she got out.
JABIN: Occasionally, some of them do find their way to the surface. We don't know how, but the Ocampa seal the tunnels afterwards.
NEELIX: Maybe she can help these good people find a way down.
JABIN: You'd be wasting your time. I've used every method of persuasion I know to get her to help us. She won't.
NEELIX: Then she's worthless to you. Let us trade you water for this scrawny little thing.
JABIN: I'd be more interested in acquiring this technology that allows you to create water from thin air.
JANEWAY: That would be difficult. It's integrated into our ship's systems.
NEELIX: Tell them to drop their weapons. Drop them, my friends, or he dies in an instant.
JABIN: Do it. Do it!
NEELIX: Step aside. Come on! I strongly suggest you get us out of here.
JANEWAY: Six to beam up!

Neelix stole from them. They treated him and his new allies as thieves. Even at gun point, Janeway was conducting a conversation and engendering a condition between the two of them. She was making headway. And then Neelix interrupted the headway with a gun seconds after Jabin tells Janeway finally that the Ocampa live underground, something a decent Operations/Tactical Officer would have noticed days ago.



O. Looky at that. Cormaline. The Kazon were running a PROFITABLE mining operation. You can hardly do that if there is an angry god is trying to swat you? And they needed an armed camp to protect their property rights from other kazon and thieves like Neelix... The Ocampa had abandoned the surface and hadn't been seen in force for a thousand years. Water just made the mining and the living easier. Hell, if they could suddenly replicate cormaline, which doesn't seem to be the case from the two subsequent mentionings of the compound in DS9(And that's why DS9 rocks.), they would have worshiped Janeway as a god and abandoned their facilities on ocampa. But here's the possible my last point... If the kazon were given water producing technology of some kind, they wouldn't find the need to steal the Ocampa's water. And in fact since the mining operation for cormaline was not going to end anytime soon even if another sect claimed that world with the constantly shifting borders of fealty, it would then be the Ocampa rising from the surface like vermin stealing and/or begging for water and food... Who was going to protect the kazon from the impending skurge of ocampa acting as parasites on their plane of existence?


Which is why Janeway would have been a prime directive following bastard not to supply the Ocampa with alternative power sources or alternative food sources than the Caretakers run down infrastructure... But then she might have made them so strong that they would slaughter the Kazon who are minding their own business, to get their water?


If you consider that the water was also used as a coolant for the mining process, that would make it impossible to recycle, so they're not as backward as we assumed? Or princessy that they won't drink previously someones urine? ...Which wouldn't explain why Neelix thought it such a marvelous commodity?

 

[Lynx]

^^
She made out with who to rescue some refugees?

Acted like a whore to break out of prison? Do you refer to the events in "Resistance"? In that case she didn't act like a whore, she simply pretended to look like one to fool the stupid prison guards.

Neelix didn't steal from them. He rescued a person who had the bad luck of being captured and enslaved by the Kazon and rescued that person from a fate worse than death. He should be honored for that.

As for the Voyager sensors not detecting the underground civilization, well the forcefield was probably strong enough to prevent that.

OK, I agree that the Caretaker wasn't the smartest guy around to allow the Kazon to more and less settle on the planet's surface, thus being a threat to the Ocampa. (See my previous thread about "The Caretaker-not the smartest being". ) He should have used his power to wipe them out and the problem would have been solved.

As for the cormaline and the lack of water, my theory is that the Kazon-Ogla on the planet were under some siege from other Kazon sects and therefore had difficulties to get all the water they wanted, probably they have to trade a lot of the valuable cormaline for water. But providing the technology to the Kazon so they could produce their own water wouldn't have been the smartes thing to do either. There would have been a risk that other Kazon sects would have attacked to get the water, the cormaline and access to the underground city as well.

And why should the Ocampa want to go to the surface in order to "rise from the surface like vermin stealing and/or begging for water and food"? They hd what they needed in their underground city.

And why so critical against the Ocampa? They were peaceful and didn't disturb anyone.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What happens to the animals if every warder at a zoo dies? What happens if no one opens the cages and they're just left there to die with no way out? That's the Ocampa. There were cracks in the force field, but not many, and they certainly couldn't get off world without begging... They were incapable of looking after themselves. They were pets. The kazon used to be pets/slaves and they turned that around until they became a power until their own while unfortunately still holding on to their backward beliefs of a feudal society.

Janeway kissed kasshak in Counterpoint to distract him during a short con to aid some refugees she was trying to keep out of a work camp. Massgrave, whatever. Janeway went up against an empire which thought it was doing right, and was willing to back up those beliefs with a legal system and an armed police force which was more than capable of crushing her because of her criminal behaviour from their perspective which is their right to hold up since it was all happening in their territory. Same with Kes, she had been enslaved. Why do you find it so hard to admit that she was a slave and Neelix emancipated her? "Difficult situation" doesn't begin to describe her plight. The Kazon owned her and unless she killed all Kazon everywhere, those property rights would have rung true from one end of their empire to the other that she had no right to her own freedom.

Laws can be stupid, but if you decide to break them there are consequences, the least of which is being called a criminal. If two hundred years ago you, or anyone had decided to "rescue" slaves from their owners in the American south, the police and the army would be on you/their tail and through you/them into jail for theft. Are the concequences (Imprisonment, worked to death, maybe a mass gassing that Voyagers crew huddles in a stove coughing blood on poison gas because Janeway assumed her morality was better than the Devore Imperiums, in the case of counterpoint.) worth proving that you're better then the people that will likely kill you for your viewpoint?

It's been a while since I've seen resistance, but if she was only pretending to be easy and not pretending to be a sex worker, then it's my bad, but as if she was acting in a play, Janeway was pretending that she was going to have sex with those guards to get what she wanted, for a fee or otherwise, the ruse lasted 12 seconds. Cullah might last twice as long. In maneuvers you could see that Seska just shut her eyes and thought of Cardassia, sacrificing barely anything since it was just currency to get what she wanted and matter of factly men that will trade a little sex fro ultimate power are fools.

I admit that giving water creating tech to the Kazon, or giving water creating tech to the Ocampa to trade with the kazon would be breaking the prime Directive, but Janeway already decided to throw the prime Directive out the window. It was a half measure to destroy the array and they just plot a course for home, if that's what they actually did. there is replicator technology inside the ocampan city but they do not have a renewable power source or if Caretaker can ever be believed the savvy to invent some alternate powersource which doesn't rely on his array.

The Kazon will have Replicator technology as soon as they sack the Ocampan city for it's water, since they're obviously trespassing on a Kazon World... If the Ocampa didn't have to power the shield, then surely the food replicators would last for 500 years more so than just 5. And all they would need to have done to be able to turn off their shield is come to an understanding with the Kazon which didn't result in war or more likely an orderly extermination as they're marched off a cliff.

 

[Anwar]

Without the Caretaker to look after them, the Ocampa would likely rediscover their mental powers which would extend their life and give them the ultimate weapon to fight off the Kazon. The Caretaker merely assumed they wouldn't be able to look after themselves but he was wrong if we take Kes into account.