Would Riker get away with calling Picard "JL"?

[fireproof78]

I'm going inconvenience everyone by bringing this thread back on topic.

Someone said that seventh season Picard might've let "JL" slide. I don't think so. At least not if it was serious. If it were a one-time joke, he'd let it slide. But I don't think "JL" is something Riker would call him because we didn't call anyone by their initials.

I'll reiterate that I think the whole "Well, Riker wouldn't..." is a completely false equivalency. Riker has a different relationship with Picard, was a different type of officer and simply wouldn't find it necessary. Raffi obviously did, or enjoyed the nickname, or other reasons.

None of which mean that Picard is acting out of character or whatever other complaints. People change over 20 years and relationships between people are different with different people.

 

[DaveyNY]

I'm going inconvenience everyone by bringing this thread back on topic.

Someone said that seventh season Picard might've let "JL" slide. I don't think so. At least not if it was serious. If it were a one-time joke, he'd let it slide. But I don't think "JL" is something Riker would call him because we didn't call anyone by their initials.

It essentially isn't part of Will's psyche to talk to a Commanding Officer in that manner.

Raffi on the other hand is obviously a bit looser with her demeanor toward higher-ups.
Which could be another reason why she was drummed out of Star Fleet after Jean-Luc resigned.
Raffi seems to enjoy dancing on the head of a pin.

 

[Yistaan]

How about: is Raffi justified in her anger at Picard for her Starfleet career being destroyed during the rescue armada incident? I mean, she seems pretty upset at one of the most revered and respected Starfleet officers of the past several generations and is now living in what amounts to the late 24th century equivalent of a trailer. Picard hasn't spoken to her in 14 years. She clearly is not comfortable with him being around her.

Why don't we focus on the justification for her anger as opposed to half-baked theoretical ideas of what unknown factors are allegedly helping to fuel said anger?

Picard's logic in contacting Raffi makes no sense. You don't contact someone who hates you and greets you with hostility. In fact, Picard could have countered her complaints on him not checking on her in that he already knew she hated him and pointing out her hostile reception.

Picard's dancing on restraining order territory I think. He already knew she hated him (the don't hang up business on the communicator).

Does Jean-Luc Picard really have no alternatives? Literally all he needed was to take those Zhat Vash bodies to Clancy and say "Here's your so-called conspiracy delusions." Clancy would then be forced to investigate, even if Picard himself might not be in command.

What about Dahj's boyfriend? Dahj herself? If Clancy claims those deaths are conspiracies, then Picard should point out if not his eyewitness testimony then who are the actual suspects? If Clancy won't listen to him, Picard can go to the police.

 

[fireproof78]

It essentially isn't part of Will's psyche to talk to a Commanding Officer in that manner.

Pretty much. He has always been deferential and not one to speak up in such a manner. Even with Jellico he just went off and sulked.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'll reiterate that I think the whole "Well, Riker wouldn't..." is a completely false equivalency. Riker has a different relationship with Picard, was a different type of officer and simply wouldn't find it necessary. Raffi obviously did, or enjoyed the nickname, or other reasons.

None of which mean that Picard is acting out of character or whatever other complaints. People change over 20 years and relationships between people are different with different people.

I didn't say anyone was acting out of character. Riker has his way of doing things and Musiker has hers. I'd never say that Musiker should be like Riker. I prefer that she isn't.

I don't think seventh season Picard is like first season Picard or Picard Picard. Picard's gone through four phases that I can identify.

1. Picard from "Encounter at Farpoint" through "The Best of Both Worlds"
2. Picard from "The Best of Both Worlds" through Generations
3. Picard from First Contact through Nemesis
4. Picard from Picard

I also noticed different phases that Kirk, Sisko, and Janeway went through over time.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn't say anyone was acting out of character. Riker has his way of doing things and Musiker has hers. I'd never say that Musiker should be like Riker. I prefer that she isn't.

Sorry. I probably was being more general than I meant with your quote. I certainly didn't think you said people were acting out of character.

 

[DaveyNY]

Picard's logic in contacting Raffi makes no sense. You don't contact someone who hates you and greets you with hostility. In fact, Picard could have countered her complaints on him not checking on her in that he already knew she hated him and pointing out her hostile reception.

Picard's dancing on restraining order territory I think. He already knew she hated him (the don't hang up business on the communicator).

Does Jean-Luc Picard really have no alternatives? Literally all he needed was to take those Zhat Vash bodies to Clancy and say "Here's your so-called conspiracy delusions." Clancy would then be forced to investigate, even if Picard himself might not be in command.

What about Dahj's boyfriend? Dahj herself? If Clancy claims those deaths are conspiracies, then Picard should point out if not his eyewitness testimony then who are the actual suspects? If Clancy won't listen to him, Picard can go to the police.

It makes perfect sense for Jean-Luc to contact Raffi.

She is an EXPERT in all things hidden with subterfuge.
She apparently is the best at what she does and can get what Picard needs without alerting Star Fleet.
Though Jean-Luc running off to ask Admiral Clancy for a ship kinda-sorta gives everything away.

Also, I think you missed the part where everything that happened in Dahj's apartment was erased.
No bodies, no mess.

 

[fireproof78]

You don't contact someone who hates you and greets you with hostility.

Maybe Picard watched a TOS episode...

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[Yminale]

Picard's logic in contacting Raffi makes no sense. You don't contact someone who hates you and greets you with hostility. In fact, Picard could have countered her complaints on him not checking on her in that he already knew she hated him and pointing out her hostile reception.

And Raffi would say that she would not hate him if she checked up on him. Hatred here is used as a dysphemism
for disappointment and Picard feeling of self guilt.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dysphemism

Does Jean-Luc Picard really have no alternatives?

He could let it go but that's not Picard. Picard chose Rafi because he hopes that she will abandon him (she won't). As for Clancy, did you miss that whole part of the Zhat Vosh being really good at clearing their tracks. Even then she still asked it to be investigated.

 

[Yistaan]

And Raffi would say that she would not hate him if she checked up on him. Hatred here is used as a dysphemism
for disappointment and Picard feeling of self guilt.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dysphemism



He could let it go but that's not Picard. Picard chose Rafi because he hopes that she will abandon him (she won't). As for Clancy, did you miss that whole part of the Zhat Vosh being really good at clearing their tracks. Even then she still asked it to be investigated.

What I'm not clear is what is the status of Laris and Zhaban legally? Do they have legal Federation asylum or is Picard literally hiding them on his vineyard (possibly posing them as Vulcans)? Because they can back up everything Picard says. Unless they're on his vineyard illegally, in which case Picard can't bring them out to talk.

 

[DaveyNY]

What I'm not clear is what is the status of Laris and Zhaban legally? Do they have legal Federation asylum or is Picard literally hiding them on his vineyard (possibly posing them as Vulcans)? Because they can back up everything Picard says. Unless they're on his vineyard illegally, in which case Picard can't bring them out to talk.

Admiral Clancy just isn't in the mood to listen to Admiral Picard cause she is pizzed off at him and thinks he's crazy.
Wouldn't matter who Jean-Luc brought to back up his tale.

 

[Yminale]

What I'm not clear is what is the status of Laris and Zhaban legally? Do they have legal Federation asylum or is Picard literally hiding them on his vineyard? Because they can back up everything Picard says. Unless they're on his vineyard illegally, in which case Picard can't bring them out to talk.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Their testimony may not be enough. After the chateau assault. It doesn't matter if Starfleet believes Picard or not.

 

[Yminale]

Admiral Clancy just ins't in the mood to listen to Admiral Picard cause she is pizzed off at him and thinks he's crazy.
Wouldn't matter who Jean-Luc brought to back up his tale.

I think it's more complicated. Clancy did ask Starfleet intelligence to look in to it. She also met with him in the first place. I wonder if she was one of the Admirals that supported Picard and that's why she is angry.

 

[Yistaan]

I think it's more complicated. Clancy did ask Starfleet intelligence to look in to it. She also met with him in the first place. I wonder if she was one of the Admirals that supported Picard and that's why she is angry.

Picard never should have gone to Clancy first. He should have started with the police, who don't have bias against him and likely respect him, to investigate Dahj and her boyfriend's death. With the police on his side officially, then Clancy can come later and would have to listen to Picard with his police backup.

 

[DaveyNY]

I think it's more complicated. Clancy did ask Starfleet intelligence to look in to it. She also met with him in the first place. I wonder if she was one of the Admirals that supported Picard and that's why she is angry.

You might want to go back an watch the conversation between Clancy and Commodore Oh.
That bit tells you everything you need to know about those questions.

 

[DaveyNY]

Picard never should have gone to Clancy first. He should have started with the police, who don't have bias against him and likely respect him, to investigate Dahj and her boyfriend's death. With the police on his side officially, then Clancy can come later and would have to listen to Picard with his police backup.

The Police were the ones that brought Jean-Luc home after the explosion.
As far as they are concerned, he was the only one on that roof.

 

[cultcross]

I didn't say anyone was acting out of character. Riker has his way of doing things and Musiker has hers. I'd never say that Musiker should be like Riker. I prefer that she isn't.

I don't think seventh season Picard is like first season Picard or Picard Picard. Picard's gone through four phases that I can identify.

1. Picard from "Encounter at Farpoint" through "The Best of Both Worlds"
2. Picard from "The Best of Both Worlds" through Generations
3. Picard from First Contact through Nemesis
4. Picard from Picard

I also noticed different phases that Kirk, Sisko, and Janeway went through over time.

I agree with your phases, and I would say "JL" became acceptable around phase three. Picard loosened up a lot, and people who got to know him then would have seen a very different man than those who got to know him as the uptight career man Riker first met in EaF. He mellowed significantly with age, and I think his friendship with Data is a good testament to that. Compare his first season irritation, to his fourth season fatherly relationship, to his Nemesis friendship, to his Picard wistful nostalgia for the man. Moving from the command structure of a deep space starship to the Admiralty probably also allowed him a chance to change his approach.

We also don't know to this day what Picard was doing between the Stargazer and the Enterprise, a span of nearly a decade. Given that people who knew him from earlier phases of his life (eg Beverley, Guinan) appear to have some greater degree of first name familiarity too, could we speculate that something happened in that span of time which convinced him that a more formal style of command was preferable?

While I find JL a little clunky as a name, I don't feel the familiarity element is a problem, even if Riker would never have used it while in uniform. Riker got to know a different man than Raffi did.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In TNG, Picard referred to Riker as "Will" while on duty, a nickname if ever there were one.

 

[Hythlodeus]

In TNG, Picard referred to Riker as "Will" while on duty, a nickname if ever there were one.

As in 'Fire at Will!'
JL really hated Riker

 

[BillJ]

It’s the intense jealousy of him owning his estate and the jealousy of his possessions in it that came off as racist to me due to the fact she dumped this out real quick after not seeing him for 14 years.

Umm... she called him JL in the flashback scene where they were still working together.