Would B-4 turn into Data?

[Triskelion]

At the end of Nemesis, we see Data's programming-consciousness beginning to emerge in the B4 android in the form of a tune, and Picard feeling reassured that Data was not completely gone.

Would Data's programming come to full fruition à la Spock in TSFS? ("Jean Wuc. You're name...is Jean Wuc.")

Or was B-4 capable of becoming his own man with only Data's memories, but not personality?

Who would B-4 eventually become? Do you think of him as Data?

What do you think?

 

[Mudd]

Yes, he would.

Never mind the in-universe stuff, the whole point of the final scene in that movie was to set up Data's return as surely as Spock's torpedo tube at the end of ST II augured his return.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The recent novels (and the IDW comic mini-series, "Countdown") have covered this question.

 

[Kor]

Yes, assuming B-4's positronic pathways would adapt on their own somehow to accomodate Data's programming.

The revelation that Data's entire being was stored in B-4 immediately nullified any sense of loss from his death.

Kor

 

[Ronald Held]

B-4's design was inferior in hardware and software to Lore's and Data's. Porting memories into B-4 is unlikely to do any to upgrade him into Data. The Persistence of Memory novel treated it more reasonably.

 

[HIjol]

Yes, he would.

Never mind the in-universe stuff, the whole point of the final scene in that movie was to set up Data's return as surely as Spock's torpedo tube at the end of ST II augured his return.

Just so

And, excellent word choice, "augured"!!!

 

[Mudd]

B-4's design was inferior in hardware and software to Lore's and Data's. Porting memories into B-4 is unlikely to do any to upgrade him into Data.

That's a hand-wave.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Yes, he would.

Never mind the in-universe stuff, the whole point of the final scene in that movie was to set up Data's return as surely as Spock's torpedo tube at the end of ST II augured his return.

Just so

And, excellent word choice, "augured"!!!

[Data] Ah "augur": bode, promise, predict, herald, signify, foreshadow, prophesy, harbinger, presage, prefigure, portend, betoken, be an omen of [/Data]

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

[Data] Ah "augur": bode, promise, predict, herald, signify, foreshadow, prophesy, harbinger, presage, prefigure, portend, betoken, be an omen of [/Data]

There's not a zodiacal sign called Nesbitt.

And no, B-4 wouldn't turn into Data. He might be able to access Data's memories but that'd be it. B-4's programming simply can't handle Data. It'd be like taking a program written in C++ and trying to run it on a TRS-80. Simply inferior hardware.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Yes, B-4 would've morphed into Data, which may or may not have been conducive to the fans of the Data character. I mean, yes, Data would be "back," but in some compromised fashion that allowed Brent Spiner to start over with a blank slate. In what "new" ways Data would process his newfound insights into Humanity is anyone's guess. But he would've hit the reset button really hard on the character. B-4 would've likely decreased, while Data increased and it wouldn't have been played as Data having "killed" his "brother," intentionally, or directly. How fans would react to the "new" Data, would've been very interesting to discover ...

 

[Mudd]

Applying the logic of computers to Data is irrelevant; the writers never treated him seriously as a machine. If Spiner and the writers and the viewers wanted Data back - and they would have - Data would have returned. It's that simple.

 

[Lance]

I've always liked to hope that he wouldn't just turn into Data.

Data did the memory transfer algorythm before he could've foreseen his ''jumping ship'' (literally). So the factor of Data being 'dead', but living on in B-4, obviously never entered his head.

In my view, through carefully watching the movie both the finished product and the deleted scenes, the context is that B-4 is a bit 'backwards', unable to grow and develop as Data (and Lore) did, and by performing the memory upgrade Data was hoping that it would ''kick start'' B-4's into developing into his own individual.

Nothing in the finished movie disputes this, and in fact it adds an added poignancy to the final scene: Picard knows Data is dead, and that B-4 may not even understand that, but when B-4 starts singing Blue Skies, Picard suddenly realises that Data may be gone, but B-4 has got his whole journey ahead of him. So while one person dies, another is born. A kind of circle of (positronic) life.

Nothing has disappointed me more than the way the post-Nemesis fiction writers have taken the 'lazy' approach of just saying, ''Y'know, Data's back, he erased B-4''. In my view it would've been so much better, and more appropriate, if thanks to the memory transfer B-4 starts his own journey to selfhood. Just like Data did before (buh-dum TISH!) him.

 

[FormerLurker]

Were I to write a TNG story with B-4 in it, I'd probably have Geordi perform some upgrades to his processors just to make it easier for him to evolve, and when Data's datadump (sorry) kicks in B-4 starts calling himself Beta, saying he's a second iteration of the individual Data used to be, and referring to Data as "the original". He'd then evolve as his own person, but be able to recall all of Data's life, much the way Data could recall everything the scientists and their families recorded before the Crystalline Entity ate them.

 

[eyeresist]

B-4's design was inferior in hardware and software to Lore's and Data's. Porting memories into B-4 is unlikely to do any to upgrade him into Data.

I agree. B-4 would be "sorta-Data" but not actually Data. I gather Spiner felt he had done as much with the character as he could, so I think he would have welcomed an opportunity to freshen the character. B-4 would have Data's memories, but he would have to access them, and he mightn't necessarily understand their implications. B-4 is mentally slower than Data, so would probably not be trusted in terms of showing initiative and independence. OTOH, they might have introduced other characteristics, e.g. B-4 lacks awareness of danger so is often getting into scrapes, but also inadvertantly is a lot more heroic.

 

[Triskelion]

Here's a thought: one day if B4 became functional enough to produce a positronic android body on the order of Data or Lal - reproducing Data's exact specifications - all he'd have to do is transfer Data's memories, and boom: Heeeee's baaaaaaaaack! (cue mariachi music).

In much the same way as if you backspace and type the same letter again, it's kind of the same letter. It's not exactly Data "me" but it is exactly Data "him." (They did that with Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman in Voyager).

So Data or not, for all intents and purposes, eventually Data could return....

In theory, you could replicate 1,000 Data's this way and they would all think they were Data, and all be Data - until their experiences separated them ( à la Thomas Riker).

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The books could have used Wesley's nanites to "upgrade" B4, making him at least the same hardware version as Data, maybe better. They evolved pretty quickly in Evolution.

As far as Data's emotion chip, he could never remove it, but eventually learned to deactivate it, right?

 

[HIjol]

Cool Thread, and well-argued and augured, all!

Dennis is Übercorrect, in that Data was always presented and explored as more of a "living" character, than a machine. That said, I really like some of the thoughts from 'Frakes regarding the "reset button/blank slate" possibilities. Good chance to further explore and depict what we missed in Data's development with Dr. Soong. Also, I agreed with Ríu ríu chíu and Ronald Held when they voiced concern over the hardware of B-4 handling Data's "programming language", but I think Icthulhu solved that problem with B-4 gaining the ability to make a new positronic body and matrix to handle the "language". I did imagine lots of opportunity for character growth when I read eyeresit's point of B-4 having the memories of Data, but not the understanding of the implications, and because of that, perhaps showing other strengths and characteristics. I loved Lances humanistic "Circle of Positronic Life", and Kor's idea that Data never died because he was transferred entirely into B-4. And finally,I heard Data's voice so very clearly in Ar-Pharazon's Post about the word "augured".

Thank you all! What excellent thoughts, and what a wonderful way for me to wake up and enjoy my coffee! If it sounds to any of you that I am being over the top about this, I am being very sincere. This is an example of how much Star Trek means to me!

 

[Lance]

Were I to write a TNG story with B-4 in it, I'd probably have Geordi perform some upgrades to his processors just to make it easier for him to evolve, and when Data's datadump (sorry) kicks in B-4 starts calling himself Beta, saying he's a second iteration of the individual Data used to be, and referring to Data as "the original". He'd then evolve as his own person, but be able to recall all of Data's life, much the way Data could recall everything the scientists and their families recorded before the Crystalline Entity ate them.

Absolutely. I *love* the idea of Data's memories living on inside B-4, but would simply prefer if the 'datadump' ( ) gave B-4 a little push to start evolving into his own person, rather than this concept that Data simply ''takes over'' B-4's body. It'd give actor Brent Spiner something new to play as well -- kind of returning to the 'back at brass tacks' Data of the early TNG seasons, but maybe taking B-4 in new directions Data never ended up going in.

 

[Relayer1]

Here's a thought: one day if B4 became functional enough to produce a positronic android body on the order of Data or Lal - reproducing Data's exact specifications - all he'd have to do is transfer Data's memories, and boom: Heeeee's baaaaaaaaack! (cue mariachi music).

In much the same way as if you backspace and type the same letter again, it's kind of the same letter. It's not exactly Data "me" but it is exactly Data "him." (They did that with Harry Kim and Naomi Wildman in Voyager).

So Data or not, for all intents and purposes, eventually Data could return....

In theory, you could replicate 1,000 Data's this way and they would all think they were Data, and all be Data - until their experiences separated them ( à la Thomas Riker).

B4 didn't have Data, he had his memories. It's not the same - Data was a combination of memory, hardware, software, experience and...

The novels treat this really well - it's a lot more complex than installing Data into B4. And the 'new' Data is just that - not quite the old Data...

 

[Terok Nor]

I don't like the idea of B-4 being erased. Data would never have wanted that. I'd like to think Geordi and Commander Maddox became so familiar with Soong-type androids that over time they were able to construct a new body for Data and copy his memories from B-4 to revive Data. That way B-4 still exists and Data comes back.

Although, I'd wonder if Data would actually have wanted to be resurrected. Death is part of the human experience so he did complete his journey. I hated the fact Data died. It was a total bummer but having Data erase B-4 is morally wrong.