Worst Episode Not Involving Lizard Babies
- Thread starter Triskelion
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The Fight and Tattoo. They are both equally bad so I can't choose between them.
I always kind of had a fondness for Threshold. So much of Voyager was play it safe story telling and they at least tried something different here. I always thought Threshold wasn't that bad because the elements in it that are bad are so obviously bad it's not even a matter of opinion. I really think things like the salamander mutations weren't real attempts at storytelling they were more somebody's idea of a joke or a last minute re-write when they couldn't do a real ending.
As someone who didn't like Voyager very much I am not sure I can single out certain episodes that were especially bad. Some were great, but most were middleing and that's how I viewed the entire show. Most of the episodes have kind of faded from my mind.
Endgame comes to mind, but I can't really say how bad of an episode it was compared to how offensive of an episode it was. It was offensive because it had all the elements that I thought made Voyager bad: pussified Borg, the reset button, time travel episode where they change history with no consequences, ignoring minor characters, Janeway chucking any semblance of the prime directive. But I can't say the episode was especially badly made or realized. They did a good job making a bad episode. Most of the Borg episodes were like that for me. They weren't bad, but there was no point in watching a Borg that simply got weaker and weaker so they can be defeated every week.
I guess what comes to mind are the Irish holodeck episodes. What were they even doing in a sci-fi show about a ship trapped thousands of light-years from home. This is there worst problem? They can't get their Irish village on? Then there was the last Q episode, which just took the whole idea of an omnipotent race and reduced them to a bratty teenager. Virtuosos is a good example of a "who came up with this shit" episode.
As someone who didn't like Voyager very much I am not sure I can single out certain episodes that were especially bad. Some were great, but most were middleing and that's how I viewed the entire show. Most of the episodes have kind of faded from my mind.
Endgame comes to mind, but I can't really say how bad of an episode it was compared to how offensive of an episode it was. It was offensive because it had all the elements that I thought made Voyager bad: pussified Borg, the reset button, time travel episode where they change history with no consequences, ignoring minor characters, Janeway chucking any semblance of the prime directive. But I can't say the episode was especially badly made or realized. They did a good job making a bad episode. Most of the Borg episodes were like that for me. They weren't bad, but there was no point in watching a Borg that simply got weaker and weaker so they can be defeated every week.
I guess what comes to mind are the Irish holodeck episodes. What were they even doing in a sci-fi show about a ship trapped thousands of light-years from home. This is there worst problem? They can't get their Irish village on? Then there was the last Q episode, which just took the whole idea of an omnipotent race and reduced them to a bratty teenager. Virtuosos is a good example of a "who came up with this shit" episode.
Yes, Jennifer Lien had quite a hand in Fury, didn't she?
How's about we take a quick peek at what Lien herself had to say on the subject.
So Lien was happy with the script, she didn't want Kes to be completely Kes, and she reckons it's pretty cool.
If there's character destruction here, Jennifer Lien is as complicit in it as Fuller, Braga, or Taylor.
^^
True. I can tell you that she did lose a lot of points on my list by participating in that episode and I'm not the only one who were very dissapointed.
However, she didn't come up with the idea for the episode, nor did she spend a Christmas Eve writing that horrible story as a "Christmas gift" to the Kes fans.
And I got to give her some credit for saving the character who they actually planned to kill off.
True. I can tell you that she did lose a lot of points on my list by participating in that episode and I'm not the only one who were very dissapointed.
However, she didn't come up with the idea for the episode, nor did she spend a Christmas Eve writing that horrible story as a "Christmas gift" to the Kes fans.
And I got to give her some credit for saving the character who they actually planned to kill off.
Is that the one where the Doctor was downloaded into Seven's body? I thought that one was a hoot!
Nope, Threshold was the absolute worst. I ran across a fanfic awhile ago where Janeway encounters one of her lizard babies (passing aliens figured out how to use the lizard babies' human DNA to turn them into real humans)... who is understandably pissed off at having been abandoned by her parents.
Oh, yes, that's the one. Maybe because I am a woman, but the whole idea of some guy using a woman's body in that way was just gross. I was 100% with Seven on that one.
And I have to agree, Threshold was the worst ever. Salamander J/P babies were horrifying enough but Paris. Pulled. Out. His. Own. Tongue. And then you could still see the tongue afterward, so they didn't even get that right.
I'd like to hear more about what was planned for Endgame?
And yeah, those Fairhaven or whatever it was episodes really bored me to tears.
And yeah, those Fairhaven or whatever it was episodes really bored me to tears.
Kes should have come back like the Kes she was in seasons 1-3.
As for "Threshold", I watched it yesterday and I have to state that the events in the episode must have been one of Janeway's nightmares. There were several things which didn't make sense:
1. Why should important crew members be allowed to waste time on a project which theoretically was impossible?
2. The flight itself with all it's hallucionating effects.
2. Paris became historical for breaking the warp speed record, mentioned along with Wright, Neil Armstrong, Cochrane. Why was that never mentioned later on?
3. Gigaquads of information about the galaxy and the Delta Quadrant was downloaded after the flight. Why was that never used later when they were desperate to find maps about the area beyond the Nekrit Expanse?
4. Michal Jonas did send the information to the Kazon. Obviously they didn't use it either.
5. The whole development of Tom Paris after the flight. Typical for a nightmare.
6. The fact that everything is back to normal after the episode and the events in it are never mentioned again. No one talks about it or jokes about it later.
It's.............like it never happened.
I've said it elsewhere - bad nightmare, caused by someone actually eating leola root caserole.
I rather like this idea. Voyager is in trouble, it looks like the end then suddenly Kes appears and magically sets things right. She's all-powerful and on their side...or is she?
One of the largest lost opportunities with Kes was not taking the chance of using her short life span to explore the issues of age and dying. You could have the suspense of not knowing what this all-powerful Kes was up to then have it turn out she just missed her friends and wanted to be around them when she died. You could even make a mini-arc of it.
"Threshold" isn't even close to being the worst Voyager episode. That distinction belongs to "Fair Haven", Spirit Folk" and "Q2", each of which is so grotesquely, hideously, unwatchably bad they make "Threshold" look like Shakespeare. Other contenders include any chuckles-centric episode, "The Disease", and "The Q and the Grey" (Suzie Plakson's immortal delivery of "You - helm boy" excepted).
Voyager-era Fuller was responsible for "Spirit Folk". As a result of his responsibility for that steaming pile of crap any plan he had for "Endgame" is of zero interest to me - and I say that as a dyed-in-the-wool fan of his work on Heroes and of the superlative Pushing Daisies. And, of course, as one of the 10 or so people on this board who likes "Endgame".
One bad episode does not a bad writer make. Trek is plagued by "malfunctioning holodeck" stories, and S6 was a lousy season anyway.
Did you know Fuller originally wanted to extend "Year of Hell" to include an entire season with NO reset button? He even wanted the ship to stay dirty and broken, but the producers told him to F-off. As for "Endgame," for starters, the plan was to have Janeway allow the Borg to assimilate the entire crew as a means to transmit the virus. However, instead we got a story with any and all potential drama or tension sucked out of it, and a nonsensical "transwarp hub."
I'm not even going to mention the how the rule "SHOW don't TELL" was blatantly ignored. Ugh. All I can say is thank Dog for Full Circle.
Well, I'm a woman too, and the reason I enjoyed that episode so much was because of Jeri Ryan's acting ability. She captured the Doctor's personality, speech patterns, and body language perfectly.Oh, yes, that's the one. Maybe because I am a woman, but the whole idea of some guy using a woman's body in that way was just gross. I was 100% with Seven on that one.Is that the one where the Doctor was downloaded into Seven's body? I thought that one was a hoot!
Nope, Threshold was the absolute worst. I ran across a fanfic awhile ago where Janeway encounters one of her lizard babies (passing aliens figured out how to use the lizard babies' human DNA to turn them into real humans)... who is understandably pissed off at having been abandoned by her parents.
And remember, the Doctor is not a man, he's a computer program that could be anything - man, woman, child, or some other species. Seven was upset because the Doctor caused harm to her body by overeating/drinking, not because he did anything worse (having sex while in Seven's body would have essentially been rape, and the Doctor would never go that far).
I don't understand the hate for the Fair Haven episodes. It was far more interesting than the luau setting or Sandrine's. And the TNG crew had favorite settings they returned to... actually, the holodeck setting I thought was the worst was Janeway's governess vs. evil housekeeper "romance" novel. I can't imagine Janeway even reading crap like that, let alone playing it out in her precious, rationed holodeck time.
And don't get me started on the Flotter episodes... the 24th century equivalent of Barney the Purple Dinosaur, in my opinion.
I never did like Kes, and was glad when she was gone. But if they had to bring her back and have her deal with problems associated with having ascended to a different, noncorporeal plane, why didn't they bring somebody like the Traveler in to help her?
You're quite right in my opinion, Lynx, but I wonder, did you read the "String Theory" novels? They essentially undo the Kes-destruction and save the character.
Yeah right.
So why don't we turn Janeway into a megalomanic dictator who executes everyone she sees as a threat, Paris into some addict,Seven slowly going crazy becase of the nanoprobes poisoning her, Torres into a serial killer and Tuvok as a suicidal person because of his loneliness on the ship.
And then we kill off all of them.
Why should Kes be the only one turned bad, destroyed and killed off when there are other promising candidates as well?
Timewalker wrote:
I agree on that suggestion about the Traveler. But of course, that would have saved the character and that wasn't the purpose from those in charge.
You're quite right in my opinion, Lynx, but I wonder, did you read the "String Theory" novels? They essentially undo the Kes-destruction and save the character.
Yes I've read the "string Theory" books. They are actually good.
OK, there are some things I which I don't really like but the way they did undone the damage made in "Fury" was very good.
I'm pretty sure it was Brannon Braga that wanted to do that.
I'm also pretty sure this idea had nothingto do with "Endgame". Fuller gave an interview to the Star Trek The Magazine back in the spring of 2001 where he listed some of the story ideas he had that ultimately weren't developed.
He wanted to do a "Tapestry" type episode where the crew got assimilated and just as Janeway was about to get stuck with a drone's injection tubules Q whisks her away where he has her confront the decisions she made over the last seven years. In the end, the Janeway learns her lesson and Q saves the crew. It was in no way tied to the series finale. It was bandied about as a Q episode but they decided to go with "Q2"
He also discussed the original idea he had for "Workforce" where instead of being captured and brainwashed by the aliens to be labor on an industrial world, the crew all died in the sabotage that crippled VOY but the aliens would have been the ones from "Ashes to Ashes" who took dead bodies and altered them into their species. The crew wouldn't have been slave labor but have started new lives on this world including Janeway and Chakotay as lovers. Eventually the doctor would have developed an antidote.
Fuller also mentioned in that same article that he lobbied for the idea in season four to incorporate Roxann's pregnancy by having her kidnapped by the Vidiians who had discovered in the intervening years that the key to their salvation wasn't B'elanna but a pure Klingon child. The Vidiians would have done some hideous experiments to her. She would have been rescued but when Roxann took maternity leave they would have had the Vidiians launch another assault and capture her explaining her absence. This story fragment morphed into part of the "Prophecy" episode.
These were merely ideas. They could have been interesting depending on how they were developed. My problem with Fuller has always been the fact that in interviews he always says what I want to hear but the end product isn't that great.
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