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Worst attempts at accents

I received the entire series of Due South on DVD for my latest birthday, and on rewatching series 3 (or season 3 & 4 to the "yanks" as Fraser snr would say) I couldn't help but laugh at how Callum Rennie's "Chicago" accent kept regularly slipping into Canadian... Oh, the irony! :D

But as for worst, I'd be tempted to go for either Connery's "The Schpaniard" or Gates McFadden in "The Hunt for Red October."

Actually, no - I'm definitely picking McFadden. Gods, that was awful.

The most awful thing about it was Cathy Ryan isn't English! I have no idea why the attempt was even necessary!


Not to mention her lines were written made her sound like a total I-never-wanted-kids-and-want-nothing-to-do-with-that-godforsaken-little-hellspawn b*tch of a mom - honestly, was it really necessary to go so overboard in trying to make Ryan seem like such a stand-up, loving father? :wtf:

"Don't let her pull any more than her usual nonsense: Two glasses of milk, two stories, and three glasses of water. And if she wets the bed she can bladdy well lie in it until the other nanny arrives in the morning."
 
^ Meh. Still grates on my ears.

As for the Picard and his English accent, my explanation has always been that he's speaking fluent and accented French but we the audience hear how the Universal Translator interprets him.
Why would we hear it that way? It doesn't seem to compensate for other characters.

How do you know? You don't know what their own accents are like.
I think we do: Scotty, Chekov, O'Brien, Troi and Bashir speak with accented English. As do the Roshenkos and T'Pau. If the UT is translating for us from their native tongues why does it give them accented English that invokes their homelands, but gives the French Picard British accented English? Also in the case of a UT breakdown there would be a Tower of Babel like effect, with Picard giving orders in French. O'Brien screaming in Irish. Worf growling in a mix of Russian and Klingon. And Troi yammering in Betazoidish. Not a good way to run an organization.
 
^ Interesting that you should mention T'Pau. Probably a lot of people wonder why (in her younger days on ENT) she spoke with no accent, but in TOS, she did. I always figured that some time between ENT and TOS she stopped using the universal translator, probably out of pride. So when we meet her in TOS, she tries to speak English natively, and thus is out of practice and so she speaks with a heavy Vulcan accent.

Don't know why Picard is such a big deal, though. So the teacher that he (and, judging by his brother, his son, and his friend Louis, most of the people in their home town) learned English from, was in fact English himself. Not exactly a stretch.
 
Despite my earlier reference to Gary Collins in The Six Million Dollar Man, I'm not sure it actually counts as a bad accent if the actor doesn't even try to do an accent (other than their own, of course). The accent isn't bad, just absent.
On a side note, it's always odd when when actors takes different approaches when playing characters from other countries in the same movie. One may go the accent route, while the other uses their normal voice. Especially when its a movie set in a particular country and all the characters are supposedly speaking their native language.

This made me think of that movie "Enemy at the Gates" where many of the Russian characters are played by British actors - Jude Law, Ralph Fiennes, Bob Hoskins, Rachel Weisz. Thought that was kind of an interesting idea, even if the movie itself wasn't so great.

Yeah it took a bit of getting used to, especially Hoskins' geezer Kruschev! As I recall Ed Harris who was playing the German sniper did have an accent? I could be wrong on that.

I quite liked it despite the accents.
 
On a side note, it's always odd when when actors takes different approaches when playing characters from other countries in the same movie. One may go the accent route, while the other uses their normal voice. Especially when its a movie set in a particular country and all the characters are supposedly speaking their native language.

This made me think of that movie "Enemy at the Gates" where many of the Russian characters are played by British actors - Jude Law, Ralph Fiennes, Bob Hoskins, Rachel Weisz. Thought that was kind of an interesting idea, even if the movie itself wasn't so great.

Yeah it took a bit of getting used to, especially Hoskins' geezer Kruschev! As I recall Ed Harris who was playing the German sniper did have an accent? I could be wrong on that.

I quite liked it despite the accents.

I really don't get bothered by accents so much, if the acting keeps me interested. To this day, I can't think of Rommel sounding like anything but James Mason. Now, John Wayne as Genghis Khan, that was an accent/casting fail of epic proportions.
 
Why would we hear it that way? It doesn't seem to compensate for other characters.

How do you know? You don't know what their own accents are like.
I think we do: Scotty, Chekov, O'Brien, Troi and Bashir speak with accented English. As do the Roshenkos and T'Pau. If the UT is translating for us from their native tongues why does it give them accented English that invokes their homelands, but gives the French Picard British accented English? Also in the case of a UT breakdown there would be a Tower of Babel like effect, with Picard giving orders in French. O'Brien screaming in Irish. Worf growling in a mix of Russian and Klingon. And Troi yammering in Betazoidish. Not a good way to run an organization.

Scotty and Chekov were a century earlier, so who knows what progress or alterations were made to the UT in the interim?

Anyway, Scotty would almost certainly have been speaking English as his first language. Ditto O'Brien - it would be nice to think that he'd be speaking Irish but I imagine that, like most Irish people in the 21st century, he'd speak English as a first language in the 24th. Chekov also spoke English badly for comedy effect, hence the 'nuclear wessels' thing.

Troi had a human father of indeterminate nationality so I've always worked on the assumption that she's also speaking accented English rather than having Betazoid translated.

It's not a theory I take too seriously or put an awful lot of stock in but as no-one else in Trek sounds quite like Picard and as his family also have English accents, I think it explains his accent as validly as any other one I've heard.
 
I don't see any need to "explain" why Picard speaks English with a British accent instead of a French one. There's no law that if your native language is French, you have to speak English with a French accent; that's more a cliche of movies and television, a way of coding characters by nationality. After all, if you learn a foreign language but still use your native pronunciations, then technically your'e doing it wrong. The goal in mastering a foreign language is to master how it's pronounced as well as the grammar and vocabulary.

Lots of people are good at mastering the accent of a foreign language, particularly if they learn both languages from childhood. I'm aware of a number of Latino actors and producers in TV who sound "American" when speaking English but also speak Spanish with a distinctly Hispanic accent.

So there shouldn't be anything strange about Picard speaking English with an English accent. Europe in the 24th century is a united culture, so he probably learned both French and British English from childhood, and thus would be fluent in both languages, including how they're pronounced. So it makes sense that he'd only use French pronunciation when actually speaking French, and would use English pronunciation when speaking English.

Really, the only time it's implausible is in "Family." There he's in his home community with his family, so that's the kind of situation where you'd expect them all to be speaking French. This is what bilingual people often do: use their native language in their own families and conclaves, then switch to the more universal language when they're in more public settings. So in that particular case, I'd be willing to believe they were actually speaking French which was being "translated" for our benefit, in which case the accents are irrelevant because we were only hearing a representation of the underlying "reality." But the rest of the time, it makes more sense to assume that Picard is simply a good enough speaker of English that he can speak it without a French accent.
 
Troi had a human father of indeterminate nationality so I've always worked on the assumption that she's also speaking accented English rather than having Betazoid translated.

The only reasons we ever heard Deanna speak in such an odd accent were:

- There was already an English actor in the cast, so TPTB didn't let Marina Sirtis use her natural accent (although that accent was different enough from Patrick Stewart's that I think they could have managed)

- at the time the show began, they didn't know which of Deanna's parents was the alien or how they would talk. (And of course nobody would dare tell Majel Barrett to talk in anything other than her real voice, nor should they have. ;) )

- when it came time for Troi's father to appear, it was such a minor role that it was unimportant whether he had an accent anyway, so they just dropped it. :shrug:
 
I've heard David Boreanaz's Irish accent was pretty bad during some of his flashbacks on Angel.
I'm not a native speaker of English, but I always found it obvious that his Irish accent was terrible. I wouldn't even be sure if that was supposed to be an Irish accent, if I didn't know he was supposed to be from Ireland. I know a guy who's never been to any English-speaking country and who does a 10 times more convincing Irish accent just for fun.

Also, Bianca Lawson's Jamaican accent on Buffy. What the hell was that?

I think the standard for bad accents is Kevin Costner in Robin Hood. Hell, I think halfway through the movie, he just gave up on it all together.
The funniest thing is that, when you think about it, he really didn't need to be using a British accent anyway. It's not like someone from 12th century would have talked like that, is it? A Robin Hood who speaks modern English with a British accent makes as much sense as a Robin Hood who speaks modern English with an American accent.
 
^ But popular culture has always imagined Robin Hood with an English accent (however inaccurate that may be), so Costner should have at least tried.
 
Really, the only time it's implausible is in "Family." There he's in his home community with his family, so that's the kind of situation where you'd expect them all to be speaking French. This is what bilingual people often do: use their native language in their own families and conclaves, then switch to the more universal language when they're in more public settings. So in that particular case, I'd be willing to believe they were actually speaking French which was being "translated" for our benefit, in which case the accents are irrelevant because we were only hearing a representation of the underlying "reality." But the rest of the time, it makes more sense to assume that Picard is simply a good enough speaker of English that he can speak it without a French accent.

I assume so; in much the same way that Quark, Rom and Nog converse in their native Ferengi language in Little Green Men, yet we hear them speaking in English.
 
I don't see any need to "explain" why Picard speaks English with a British accent instead of a French one. There's no law that if your native language is French, you have to speak English with a French accent; that's more a cliche of movies and television, a way of coding characters by nationality. After all, if you learn a foreign language but still use your native pronunciations, then technically your'e doing it wrong. The goal in mastering a foreign language is to master how it's pronounced as well as the grammar and vocabulary.


Lots of people are good at mastering the accent of a foreign language, particularly if they learn both languages from childhood. I'm aware of a number of Latino actors and producers in TV who sound "American" when speaking English but also speak Spanish with a distinctly Hispanic accent.

Technically, aren't you 'explaining' why he might speak with an English accent? :p

So there shouldn't be anything strange about Picard speaking English with an English accent. Europe in the 24th century is a united culture, so he probably learned both French and British English from childhood, and thus would be fluent in both languages, including how they're pronounced. So it makes sense that he'd only use French pronunciation when actually speaking French, and would use English pronunciation when speaking English.

Could well be. On the other hand, Picard is a proud Frenchman and why wouldn't he want to use his own beautiful language, given that the UT will translate it for him? If the UT translates the Ferengi tongue into perfect American-accented English (sorry, 'Federation Standard'), then it could translate French into English accented standard. Either way, we're speculating.

Really, the only time it's implausible is in "Family." There he's in his home community with his family, so that's the kind of situation where you'd expect them all to be speaking French. This is what bilingual people often do: use their native language in their own families and conclaves, then switch to the more universal language when they're in more public settings. So in that particular case, I'd be willing to believe they were actually speaking French which was being "translated" for our benefit, in which case the accents are irrelevant because we were only hearing a representation of the underlying "reality." But the rest of the time, it makes more sense to assume that Picard is simply a good enough speaker of English that he can speak it without a French accent.

I agree about Family, but like I say, I think with everything else we're speculating. I don't think my theory outweighs yours, I think either works. :)

At the end of the day, the UT is simply another narrative sci-fi device to get around the whole language issue and one which probably doesn't bear a lot of scrutiny (remember the scene in TUC where they had to translate Klingon with reference to dictionaries because the Klingons would recognise the Translator?!).
 
Technically, aren't you 'explaining' why he might speak with an English accent? :p

Okay, let me rephrase that: I don't see any need to concoct a sci-fi explanation for it as though it were somehow strange or inexplicable for someone to speak a foreign language without using their native accent. It's actually perfectly natural and common in real life. (Heck, when I took language classes in high school and college, the pronunciation was the easiest thing for me to master. Well, except for a Spanish RR. Never did get a handle on that one.)


Could well be. On the other hand, Picard is a proud Frenchman and why wouldn't he want to use his own beautiful language, given that the UT will translate it for him?

That's a bizarre question. How could it be beautiful if nobody heard what he actually said?

The overwhelming majority of the human race is bilingual or multilingual. Millions and millions of people speak one language at home with their family or neighbors and a different language when they go to work or move to the big city. That's a normal pattern worldwide, and there's no reason to think that would ever change. In the 24th century, English is clearly the global tongue that everyone would learn (even more so than it is already), and other languages would be regional tongues for local and home use. So speaking English on the job wouldn't prevent Picard from speaking his beautiful native language in private or at home.

Anyway, I don't think it would be healthy to rely entirely on a universal translator rather than simply learning multiple languages. For one thing, you can't always be sure you'll have a UT available or that it will be functioning. For another, although TV glosses over this, it would be damned awkward to have to filter out a person's actual speech while trying to listen to the translated speech superimposed on it. For another, there's no such thing as a perfect translation, so if you want to make sure you're understood clearly without mistakes or confusion, your best option is to learn a language your listeners will understand.

Besides, you could just as well ask why they send live people into space instead of using robot probes, or why they walk instead of having themselves beamed everywhere. People in the Federation aren't the sorts to become overly dependent on technology to do things they have the physical and mental capacity to do for themselves. If they were, they'd be lazy and dissolute and... well, they'd be like the humans in WALL-E. So yes, they would be able and willing to make the effort to actually learn languages rather than being lazy slugs who depended on machinery to do it for them. Universal translators are for situations where there's no time or opportunity to learn a language. Realistically, they'd be a less-than-ideal form of communication that's resorted to in the absence of better alternatives.
 
^ Like I say, Christopher I don't have a problem with your explanation; I just choose to have my own. I wish you could be as tolerant of other people's theories.

Picard himself can hear French when he speaks it. Other people in-universe who understand French can understand it - we the audience don't hear it, as we get the benefit of the UT. You ever think that maybe, being a zillion lightyears from home, he'd like a little reminder of home?

I'm sure he can speak other languages but he may not wish to. And let me put it this way - have you ever met a Frenchman who spoke English with a perfect - and in this case regional - accent? I've been to France numerous times and live close to France than you do and I never have. Sure, no doubt that'll change over time, but the bottom line is either way, we're just trying to rationalise something which isn't explained onscreen! Unless and until someone turns around and says to Picard onscreen 'Wow, Jean-Luc, your accent is brilliant for a Frenchman!', we won't know.

The French are very proud of their language; it's actually a myth that Parisians won't speak English to anyone - if you make any effort to speak French to them, they'll reward it by speaking English back, but they're always happy to assist with pronounciation, slang and other words. So I do think that Picard, proud Frenchman as we know him to be, would also be happy to speak his own language when he likes. I never said that he didn't speak English (he's a multicultural, broad-minded sort of guy, of course he'd be multi-lingual), just that he speaks French.

Of course being multi-lingual is good (I speak English, French, Irish and a little Spanish) but the flip of the coin is that as English becomes more prevalent, minority languages become more endangered. Irish, Manx, Cornish, Welsh and Scots Gaelic have all become less used as English has dominated these islands over the last few years; no doubt things like that will be echoed in other continents where one language becomes dominant. Or other planets, by the 24th century.

So I think that it would be entirely in keeping with the character of JLP, historian, archeologist and scholar, to do his best to ensure that French doesn't merely become another 'regional tongue.' I think that he would think, like I do, that it's a tragedy when a minority language dies out, when its last native speaker passes away.

Finally, I really don't know where you're going with the whole probes point. I mean, TUC showed how dependent on the translator the 23rd century Starfleet was, for one thing.
 
Picard himself can hear French when he speaks it. Other people in-universe who understand French can understand it - we the audience don't hear it, as we get the benefit of the UT. You ever think that maybe, being a zillion lightyears from home, he'd like a little reminder of home?

Like I said, most human beings today are bilingual, and humans on Earth in the 24th century Federation most likely learn English from childhood along with whatever their local language is. English would be just as much a "reminder of home" for Picard as French.

And like I said, no machine translation can ever be perfect. He'd be a fool to rely on translators to convey his orders to his crew -- especially if some strange cosmic phenomenon or alien attack blew out the translator circuits. Of course he speaks the same language as the rest of his crew. Anything else would be criminally negligent and stupid as hell.


And let me put it this way - have you ever met a Frenchman who spoke English with a perfect - and in this case regional - accent?

Like I said, I'm aware of multiple actors who come from Latin America, who speak Spanish fluently with a Latino accent, but who also speak fluent American English with little or no trace of accent. I'm also aware of plenty of British and Australian actors who have played Americans on American shows and rarely if ever show any trace of their native accents -- Hugh Laurie, Anna Torv, Jamie Bamber, Anthony La Paglia, Poppy Montgomery, etc.

And what makes Picard's English accent any more "regional" than Riker's American accent? There was a time, much closer to us than Star Trek is, when British influence and British accents spread across nearly the entire planet. And 24th-century Earth is much more culturally unified and homogeneous than our Earth. English is clearly its universal language, and speakers may be more or less evenly divided between those who use American pronunciation and those who use British. Indeed, if historical precedent and geography are anything to go on, the latter could well be more common.


Sure, no doubt that'll change over time, but the bottom line is either way, we're just trying to rationalise something which isn't explained onscreen! Unless and until someone turns around and says to Picard onscreen 'Wow, Jean-Luc, your accent is brilliant for a Frenchman!', we won't know.

But the point is that it doesn't need an extravagant explanation because it's not unprecedented in real life. As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If there's a perfectly commonplace explanation for something, as there is in this case, then there's no logic in claiming that a complicated, far-out explanation is equally plausible. It isn't, not at all.


So I do think that Picard, proud Frenchman as we know him to be, would also be happy to speak his own language when he likes. I never said that he didn't speak English (he's a multicultural, broad-minded sort of guy, of course he'd be multi-lingual), just that he speaks French.

Of course he can speak both. I've already pointed out repeatedly that most human beings are bilingual, so that should be axiomatic. My point is that there's no mystery behind his ability to speak English with correct pronunciation. If he learned and used both English and French from childhood onward, which is overwhelmingly probable, then it makes perfect sense that he could speak both languages without an accent. As I said, he may speak French all the time when he's with his family or with Francophone friends, but when he does speak English, as he most likely would when serving as a starship captain, it shouldn't be shocking that he can pronounce it correctly.


Of course being multi-lingual is good (I speak English, French, Irish and a little Spanish) but the flip of the coin is that as English becomes more prevalent, minority languages become more endangered.

In "Code of Honor," Data did call French an "obscure language." And that's all the more reason why it shouldn't be surprising that Picard can speak and pronounce English fluently.


Finally, I really don't know where you're going with the whole probes point. I mean, TUC showed how dependent on the translator the 23rd century Starfleet was, for one thing.

When dealing with alien languages that are poorly understood, yes. Like I said, it makes sense that the translator, imperfect as it is, would be used in circumstances where there's no alternative, like in dealings with aliens whose languages are unknown or little-known. (And TUC is a crappy example because it was completely idiotic to postulate that nobody on the crew spoke Klingonese. They tossed credibility out the window for a stupid gag.) But that's completely different from using it for translation between two common and well-understood human languages. That's like the difference between using a car to drive across country and using it to drive half a block, or the difference between using a calculator for solving complex quadratic equations and using a calculator to add 3 + 7. The former is a necessary use of technology to do something you can't do yourself, the latter is just a lazy and pathetic dependence on technology to do something you're perfectly capable of doing yourself.
 
The bottom line is, I'm quite content with my theory and haven't found anything you've said sufficiently convincing to dissuade me from it.

You've named several actors, all Australian who speak English as their first language, which is totally different from someone who'd speak it as their second language. You haven't named a single Frenchman. I'd say that a Frenchman who sounds like Picard is extraordinary.

Picard's, or rather Patrick Stewart's, accent is regional within the context of the UK and very distinctive - a sort of posh Yorkshire accent. You would rarely hear tv presenters on the national news who sound like him, for example. Most French people strive for 'RP', received pronounciation when learning English, not a Yorkshire accent. I think it would be certainly unusual, if not extraordinary, for a Frenchman to sound like him.

Like it or not TUC, is up onscreen, it's canon.

Again, I've stressed - I agree that Picard can speak English. Basically, I think he will speak French because he wants to. Hell, for all we know, some of the others in the crew speak it too and know what he's saying - the UT only translates it for us viewers. It may be 'obscure' in galactic terms but not in a mostly human bridge crew

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
I'd say that we know that we don't hear Picard via the UT because it doesn't translate "merde" for us. As La Barre in Franche-Comté would lie in the old County of Burgundy (I might be mistaken), perhaps his accent is tempered by Burgundian or Arpitan influences. However, they probably don't say "Ey up cock, fancy a pint?" in that region.
 
^ The 'merde' thing did occur to me but that can be rationalised as a dramatic conceit, as the word 'shit' wouldn't have gotten past the censors. Anyway, JLP said it to himself, so the UT wouldn't have picked it up.
 
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