Spoilers World Enough and Time (Grade & Discussion Thread)

[starsuperion]

Well the master must of somehow been catapulted into the time line back in time and ended up on the Mondas ship, after the events of the end of time. Given his body is older than his previous time and the grey hairs, he said he had been there for several weeks, or months. Or whatever. I am thinking we are gonna see his regen into Missy explained.

 

[captainkirk]

Don't worry, Moffat's the only writer who seems to get a thrill out of doing that, he even did it in the RTD era, although RTD himself did that three times.

Three? The only one I remember is in Rose. When were the others?

 

[Saul]

Good episode but as others have said kinda spoiled on things even though I avoid spoilers. Looking forward to next week.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Ah, okay. I haven't watched the Q&A's. Are those available online?

Last night's should be still up somewhere on the Beeb's FB page...

Yep -

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[DarthPipes]

I think Moffat's decision to keep Nardole for more and more episodes was a mistake. While I like the idea of multiple companions who don't know each other on the TARDIS, he makes Bill less and less essential to the Doctor. He knows how to pilot the TARDIS, which very few companions know. He knows several of the Doctor's secrets and can be a confidant to him in a way that Bill can't. As a result, he seems to be more vital in the resolution of this year's adventures than BIll has been.

Also, I was at the NYCC Doctor Who panel last October. Matt Lucas was really, really funny on it and I wish he'd been allowed to bring some of that humor to Nardole.

 

[publiusr]

Okay, I gotta ask this. A big deal has been made about the return of the Mondas Cybermen, and don't get me wrong, I love when a show like Doctor Who mines its history for new stories, and I get the Cybus Cybermen, but haven't we been getting THIS UNIVERSES' Cybermen for a while now? The "Iron Man" Cybermen are this universe's Cybermen, not the "Pete's World" Cybers, so, wouldn't that make them Mondasian Cybermen? I don't understand the disconnect. Is it just that these Cybermen are converted Mondasian Humans and not Humans from another world?

I'm thinking that these Mondas-escaping Cybermen and the Pete's world cybers made some contact--resulting in the Danny Pink cybermen--which seemed a hybrid.

I think Missy will "kill" her earlier self--maybe also using the device the Doctor meant to use on Clara-to erase some of the events from memory.

 

[auntiehill]

Really liked this episode--the creep factor was high, I got really involved in Bill's story and loved the Master reveal at the end. I wish they hadn't advertised the Cybermen; it would've been more exciting not knowing for certain what was going to happen.

The only problem with 2-parters is that, often, the set-up will be very clever and exciting but the resolution often falls flat--feeling far too pat and rather lame, considering what a tremendous obstacle (what that might be) they had to overcome. I'm hoping this isn't one of those times.

 

[TommyR01D]

Nardole makes Bill less and less essential to the Doctor. He knows how to pilot the TARDIS, which very few companions know. He knows several of the Doctor's secrets and can be a confidant to him in a way that Bill can't. As a result, he seems to be more vital in the resolution of this year's adventures than Bill has been.

I had similar misgivings about River Song in Series 6. She got envelope 2 while Amy & Rory got envelope 3. She obviously outranked them in the TARDIS even though they were the main companions and she was only a recurring character.

The only problem with 2-parters is that, often, the set-up will be very clever and exciting but the resolution often falls flat--feeling far too pat and rather lame, considering what a tremendous obstacle (what that might be) they had to overcome. I'm hoping this isn't one of those times.

A lot of members loved Dark Water but were unimpressed by Death in Heaven. In the last series we had the all-time classic Heaven Sent followed by... oh dear.

 

[Mr Awe]

I was probably a little harsh with my review, but this is really how I feel. A lot of the episode felt like Bill and Razor wandering around the hospital and then the whole Pain Pain thing got annoying pretty quickly. It felt drawn out and really slowed down the episode. Now if they had done the Master reveal maybe at the 45 minute mark and not left it as a cliffhanger, I think I would have enjoyed the episode more because the urgency would have been ratcheted up quite a bit.

I also think my stance with the season as a whole (Which has been kind of boring and just "there") also affected my enjoyment of this episode. I also agree, I'm done with Nardole and wish he would just go away. He has done nothing of value this season.

Yep, exactly that for me about the season. It was just kind of there for the most part. At least there were no real stinkers like last season but no real knockouts either.

For this story specifically, there just wasn't much story to it. The Doctor and company arrive, Bill gets shot, and then lots and lots of waiting as literally years pass for Bill but nothing in terms of story development. Just passing timing waiting for the big "reveals."

I also don't get the decision to hide Simm. Huh? That doesn't make sense. And, why would the Master masquerade as a servant for a long time? Yeah, he needed the disguise so Bill doesn't recognize him as the former PM. But, he had the disguise before they arrived. Maybe there's a reason that'll be expanded upon in part 2.

The hospital scenes were a bit creepy but they were the generic creepiness of an old hospital. And, Moffat doesn't get credit for that as the writer. In the end, there just wasn't much story to it. The setup, lots of waiting, then the reveals. Meh. I was still entertained but it definitely wasn't epic.

 

[Mr Awe]

As someone previously mentioned in this thread, how is it she can't remember any of her time as the Simm Master? Unless that's a great game they are both playing, and my money's on both of them playing a long game with the Doctor. Perhaps they do know.

I don't think she does remember. When they were having a conversation alone, the two Masters, she still claimed to not remember. There may be some larger purpose for her to not remember but it probably is just related to the fact that the Doctor doesn't appear to remember multi-Doctor adventures.

Although I can't explain why she doesn't remember the events Simm experienced on the ship before her own arrival.

 

[φ of π]

Obviously Simm's "The Master" isn't paying enough attention!

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I think Moffat's decision to keep Nardole for more and more episodes was a mistake.

As I understand it, there were behind-the-scenes reasons for Nardole's presence throughout. The role wasn't intended to be as significant as it has been in series 10, but Capaldi and Lucas got on well and enjoyed working together, so the role was beefed up.

I don't think she does remember. When they were having a conversation alone, the two Masters, she still claimed to not remember. There may be some larger purpose for her to not remember but it probably is just related to the fact that the Doctor doesn't appear to remember multi-Doctor adventures.

Although I can't explain why she doesn't remember the events Simm experienced on the ship before her own arrival.

One possibility, which I floated in another thread -- Gomez-Missy and Simm-Master aren't directly connected due to the Time War. One is the continuation of the Master resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War, the other is the continuation of the Delgado-Beevers-Ainley-Rathbone-Tipple-Roberts line (with various Big Finish Masters in there, too.)

The other possibility that occurs to me -- Missy isn't actually the Master. She only believes she's the Master. Given that Capaldi has said his one big question is whatever happened to Susan, I wonder if Missy is really Susan, and she won't remember this until the Doctor's regeneration energy triggers her buried memories.

 

[Mr Awe]

As I understand it, there were behind-the-scenes reasons for Nardole's presence throughout. The role wasn't intended to be as significant as it has been in series 10, but Capaldi and Lucas got on well and enjoyed working together, so the role was beefed up.



One possibility, which I floated in another thread -- Gomez-Missy and Simm-Master aren't directly connected due to the Time War. One is the continuation of the Master resurrected by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War, the other is the continuation of the Delgado-Beevers-Ainley-Rathbone-Tipple-Roberts line (with various Big Finish Masters in there, too.)

The other possibility that occurs to me -- Missy isn't actually the Master. She only believes she's the Master. Given that Capaldi has said his one big question is whatever happened to Susan, I wonder if Missy is really Susan, and she won't remember this until the Doctor's regeneration energy triggers her buried memories.

I very strongly hope that it's neither of the reasons you mentioned. I want there to be one Master character rather than weird offshoots. That gets too convoluted. Personal opinion, but when I watch Missy I want to know that it's the same character as Delgado's Master. Just like when I watch Capaldi, I like how it's the same character that Hartnell played. That has value for me.

Also, Susan is the character from the classic series that I most want to return to the new series. The classic series didn't explore that relationship and why they were running away together at all. She was just his granddaughter to avoid the otherwise awkward situation of an old man traveling alone with a young woman. I've always hoped she'd return so that they could explore that. I don't want it to become some weird tale of how Susan became evil. I'd much rather focus on explaining what led up to the situation we saw in Unearthly Child.

So, my hope is that there is an in story explanation for why she doesn't remember. Maybe Simm regenerates into Missy and the Doctor erases her memories? I would be much happier with that explanation. Or possibly explain it as some temporal paradox of an individual meeting themselves from different points in time?

 

[StCoop]

As I understand it, there were behind-the-scenes reasons for Nardole's presence throughout. The role wasn't intended to be as significant as it has been in series 10, but Capaldi and Lucas got on well and enjoyed working together, so the role was beefed up.

You only have to look at any interviews with the non-Moffat writers on the series who basically all say that they didn't know he'd be there until pretty late in the day.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A

The other possibility that occurs to me -- Missy isn't actually the Master. She only believes she's the Master. Given that Capaldi has said his one big question is whatever happened to Susan, I wonder if Missy is really Susan, and she won't remember this until the Doctor's regeneration energy triggers her buried memories.

Missy is the next Doctor. 13 has been under our noses the entire time.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I know you're joking but...

What if that's the case? What if The Doctor's grief for Bill's fate is so strong that it influences how his regeneration is developed? On the one hand, it echoes Romana's decision to change her form to Princess Astra's likeness (although there have been multiple accounts about how and why she changed her appearance and that's just from Big Finish). On the other hand, it also echoes the unnecessary explanation why The Twelfth Doctor looks like Lobus Caecilius and John Frobisher.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Augment virus? Oh, wait. That's the other show.

 

[Solariabsg25]

The other possibility that occurs to me -- Missy isn't actually the Master. She only believes she's the Master. Given that Capaldi has said his one big question is whatever happened to Susan, I wonder if Missy is really Susan, and she won't remember this until the Doctor's regeneration energy triggers her buried memories.

From The Master's comments it would seem to indicate she is indeed his regeneration, like commenting on how the Doctor could never forgive Missy for what she did to Bill in her past. The interesting thing is, how does he KNOW she was if he's a prior regeneration? Did he have a chance to peruse The Matrix before leaving? Or did he find out about Missy in adventures before getting onto the colony ship?

 

[The Wormhole]

Three? The only one I remember is in Rose. When were the others?

Actually, it's not in Rose, unless you count seeing it briefly on the computer screen when Rose Googles the Doctor.

The three I was referring to were Boomtown (spoken by Margaret Slitheen's assistant), The Christmas Invasion (spoken by Jackie) and The Next Doctor (spoken by Jackson Lake's companion).

From The Master's comments it would seem to indicate she is indeed his regeneration, like commenting on how the Doctor could never forgive Missy for what she did to Bill in her past. The interesting thing is, how does he KNOW she was if he's a prior regeneration? Did he have a chance to peruse The Matrix before leaving? Or did he find out about Missy in adventures before getting onto the colony ship?

He says he worked it out from his observations of the TARDIS team, noting that she took him the longest.

 

[Riverside2233]

I feel like there is so much going on in this episode I might have to watch it a second or third time. I found myself - in multiple scenes - feeling like I had missed something. There are certainly some big moments for the season happening here and I feel like they took an Interstellar swing at the black hole / time concept that they really could have played on a bit more.