Spoilers World Enough and Time (Grade & Discussion Thread)
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That was a great episode. It started out with some great meta humor (after that cool teaser of The Doctor regenerating), and transitioned very well into being genuinely creepy. Everyone was great. If I didn't know Simm was in the episode, I probably wouldn't have guessed he was in disguise as that guy. I liked the ship and its predicament, it was a neat time effect to use for the story. The ending with Bill as a Cyberman was cool (although I'm 90% sure it will somehow get reversed), and seeing the two Masters together was great. I think this might be my second favorite 12th Doctor episode after Heaven Sent, and I can't wait to see the next episode.
I must say that was suitably epic. Well done!
I figured out it was the Master with about 15 minutes to go but that was still a pretty awesome old-school Master disguise. John Simm was great and the ending with him, Missy and CyberBill was awesome.
The backstory on the Cybermen was excellent and creepy. Loved the FX and the direction of Rachel Talady. The Doctor saying that human having only one heart was akin to a budget cut was pretty funny.
This episode wasn't perfect. This was a bad one for The Doctor. His unhealthy fixation with Missy got Bill shot. Missy once wiped out half the galaxy. Missy kills at will and has never been truly punished for her crimes. Missy once physically aged The Doctor 900 years and put him in a cage for a year...the Doctor seems to act like an abused spouse with the way he tries to convince everyone that Missy has changed and that they should trust him though I'm not sure if I buy him sending Missy out on a test run like this.
Also, why the hell did it take him so long to recognize the Mondasian Cybermen? Also couldn't help but notice that the last two black friends of the Doctor who both been turned in Cybermen.
I find Missy's monologue scenes to be annoying. Missy isn't as brilliant as Moffat thinks she is and Moffat sure as hell isn't either. Michelle Gomez, Alex Kingston and Jenna Colmen are terrific actresses but Moffat only succeeds in giving them annoying characters to play.
I figured out it was the Master with about 15 minutes to go but that was still a pretty awesome old-school Master disguise. John Simm was great and the ending with him, Missy and CyberBill was awesome.
The backstory on the Cybermen was excellent and creepy. Loved the FX and the direction of Rachel Talady. The Doctor saying that human having only one heart was akin to a budget cut was pretty funny.
This episode wasn't perfect. This was a bad one for The Doctor. His unhealthy fixation with Missy got Bill shot. Missy once wiped out half the galaxy. Missy kills at will and has never been truly punished for her crimes. Missy once physically aged The Doctor 900 years and put him in a cage for a year...the Doctor seems to act like an abused spouse with the way he tries to convince everyone that Missy has changed and that they should trust him though I'm not sure if I buy him sending Missy out on a test run like this.
Also, why the hell did it take him so long to recognize the Mondasian Cybermen? Also couldn't help but notice that the last two black friends of the Doctor who both been turned in Cybermen.
I find Missy's monologue scenes to be annoying. Missy isn't as brilliant as Moffat thinks she is and Moffat sure as hell isn't either. Michelle Gomez, Alex Kingston and Jenna Colmen are terrific actresses but Moffat only succeeds in giving them annoying characters to play.
- How does Missy not remember her timeline as the Master aboard this ship? Surely she would know what happened and what was coming? Or is he not the real Master, and is it him regenerating in the cold open (chameleon Time Lord??).
- Bill being written out in this episode is a good move; frees up the Doctor to spend more time with the Two Masters in the finale. And also (no doubt) allows Clara to return in the xmas special...
- Someone please shoot Matt Lucas. His character just serves no purpose on the Tardis at all.
- Was gonna cringe about the old Cyber voices but Briggs got it right. And they come across just as creepy as 51 years ago.
- Bill being written out in this episode is a good move; frees up the Doctor to spend more time with the Two Masters in the finale. And also (no doubt) allows Clara to return in the xmas special...
- Someone please shoot Matt Lucas. His character just serves no purpose on the Tardis at all.
- Was gonna cringe about the old Cyber voices but Briggs got it right. And they come across just as creepy as 51 years ago.
I gave this 4 out of 5. The middle was actually a bit tedious with lots of padding. Definitely drawn out. I enjoyed it but less that most others apparently. Too much time spent around the hospital with not much going on. In stead of wasting Simm's time playing Razor, why not have more time with him as the Master. That would've been a more interesting use. Basically lots of waiting around for the reveals that we knew were coming. Mondasian Cybermen and Simm. The earlier parts of the story has some good character moments.
I suspect that as people rewatch this one it won't seem as strong.
Enjoyable but not epic greatness.
I suspect that as people rewatch this one it won't seem as strong.
Enjoyable but not epic greatness.
I was probably a little harsh with my review, but this is really how I feel. A lot of the episode felt like Bill and Razor wandering around the hospital and then the whole Pain Pain thing got annoying pretty quickly. It felt drawn out and really slowed down the episode. Now if they had done the Master reveal maybe at the 45 minute mark and not left it as a cliffhanger, I think I would have enjoyed the episode more because the urgency would have been ratcheted up quite a bit.
I also think my stance with the season as a whole (Which has been kind of boring and just "there") also affected my enjoyment of this episode. I also agree, I'm done with Nardole and wish he would just go away. He has done nothing of value this season.
Erm, they did the Master reveal at more or less 45 minute mark as the episode only runs around 45 minutes. That isn't to say at times it didn't feel like they weren't padding the episode but te Master reveal was always likely to be the cliffhanger. Just have to wait and see what part 2 brings and if the story could have worked as a 60-7 minute special instead of a 90minute two-parter.
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Part two is 60 minutes.
So.... Someone at TV Tropes has listed in the recap page under Freeze Frame Bonus that there's a momentary shot of a girl standing at one of the city windows who looks a lot like Heather from "The Pilot"... Bill's possible "happy" ending?
Thinking about this more, Bill's shooting would have to be part of the Master's plan all along. The proto-Cybes who come up to the bridge to take her must have been gone for a considerable period of time as far as the bottom of the ship is concerned (over a year if Bill's relative time watching the Doctor is to be believed), yet they must have been some of the earlier experiments as the conversion process isn't much further along. So why waste resources on what is likely a multi-year mission to capture and convert one human? Unless the Master had planned to lure the Doctor in and grab whatever companions he had with him...
I haven't actually seen the next week's previous or anything, but the chat between the Doctor and Bill, together Bill's several-year (?) relationship with Mr Razor, makes me think she ought to have the “You are Missy?” realization in a non-converted form at some point, as that could be rather interesting, and almost obligatory. It seemed important for Bill to learn that Missy had been a man once. And she only knows that Missy is a mass-murdered second-hand, but not a first-hand experience of how she really operates, which that entire episode really was – Bill saw the Master's horrific work, participated in it, got the sense of betrayal, but never really got to learn who that was.
The Cybus Cybermen lost the big C on their chests from A Good Man Goes to War onwards. I don't know if they were supposed to represent a different breed.
They were - in fact the Pandorica versions were meant to be from this universe, IIRC.
That trailer for next week makes it look like the Doctor is drawing regeneration energy from the ground... and features way too many nuCybermen. I was hoping the Mondas group would take care of the whole ep.
Yeah, the AGMGTW and TPO versions were meant to be our universe Cybes, likely having encountered remnants of the Cybus versions and incorporated the design.
As mentioned upthread, the Mondasians were only seen in The Tenth Planet and were all destroyed when Mondas went bye-bye. The versions from the rest of the classic series (and the AGMGTW onwards versions) are Telosian or other offshoots of Mondas. The guy who used to play the Cyber-Leader in the classic series wrote a book trying to create a timeline for how these versions came about, and thus why appearances change over time.
He posited that some Mondasians used their limited spaceflight to hop off Mondas to "Planet 14" as it was hurtling out of the solar system. These split into several groups - those who favoured only enough Cyber-implants to survive, and those who went gung-ho for full upgrades, though over time it mattered little - some went off to try and explore space (eventually colonising Telos) and others tried to attack Earth (explaining why there could be a Cyber-invasion in the UNIT era whilst Tenth Planet was set later on) - one of the ships from the attack in The Invasion survived on the moon, leading to The Moonbase (which was earlier in the Doctor's timeline but later in Earth's...).
As mentioned upthread, the Mondasians were only seen in The Tenth Planet and were all destroyed when Mondas went bye-bye. The versions from the rest of the classic series (and the AGMGTW onwards versions) are Telosian or other offshoots of Mondas. The guy who used to play the Cyber-Leader in the classic series wrote a book trying to create a timeline for how these versions came about, and thus why appearances change over time.
He posited that some Mondasians used their limited spaceflight to hop off Mondas to "Planet 14" as it was hurtling out of the solar system. These split into several groups - those who favoured only enough Cyber-implants to survive, and those who went gung-ho for full upgrades, though over time it mattered little - some went off to try and explore space (eventually colonising Telos) and others tried to attack Earth (explaining why there could be a Cyber-invasion in the UNIT era whilst Tenth Planet was set later on) - one of the ships from the attack in The Invasion survived on the moon, leading to The Moonbase (which was earlier in the Doctor's timeline but later in Earth's...).
Two Masters, old fashioned cybers, and a black hole. Wow
After that it just felt like a good episode and not really a great episode.
I didn't pick John Simms Master till the last 10 minutes.
As someone previously mentioned in this thread, how is it she can't remember any of her time as the Simm Master? Unless that's a great game they are both playing, and my money's on both of them playing a long game with the Doctor. Perhaps they do know.
The over use of "Doctor Who" strikes again grrrr someone please stick a cybermat on Moffat.
7/10
After that it just felt like a good episode and not really a great episode.
I didn't pick John Simms Master till the last 10 minutes.
As someone previously mentioned in this thread, how is it she can't remember any of her time as the Simm Master? Unless that's a great game they are both playing, and my money's on both of them playing a long game with the Doctor. Perhaps they do know.
The over use of "Doctor Who" strikes again grrrr someone please stick a cybermat on Moffat.
7/10
But how did the people on "Pete's world" invent Cybermen that looked like the ones from our universe?
Yeah, there must be some explanation for the Missy forgetting about that period. Its one thing to forget these couple of episodes, that'd be normal - but whole periods? Wonder if Missy messes with the Master's timeline a little bit to attribute to that.
Morphic resonance?
Alternatively, maybe Pete's World did have its own Telosian Cybermen who invaded in the 1960s-70s but UNIT covered it up completely - Lumic's men are seen using a truck belonging to the same company owned by Tobias Vaughan in The Invasion, so Lumic may have gotten his hands on some dead Cybes or even just knew enough to give him his ideas?
I also wondered this, and asked that question myself in this thread.
But then now thinking about it, right now, what if Missy is someone else that has say gone mad for whatever reason with the life, and the Doctor, maybe she's someone we all know, like Susan.
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