Worf's decision in "Change of Heart"

[Charles Phipps]

To be fair, Starfleet does these kind of morality tests all the time as we saw with the Short Trek about Pike interrogating an officer about her husband being threatened.

It's stupid and sadistic and shows Starfleet has some screwed up priorities.

 

[matthunter]

I don't recall Ezri doing anything pivotal to the war effort in S7 either, so it could be argued that even saving the Dax symbiont was ultimately irrelevant.

Fuck, I'd hate to be judged as irrelevant based on one year of my probably quite long life (given Ezri's age).

I know we'll get a "waa, if it's not on screen it doesn't count!!" argument but then at the time of What We Leave Behind you have no idea what's in store for Ezri and neither would Worf. But in the novels her actions as captain of the Aventine likely save far more live than could have been saved by the informant.

The thing is we shouldn't weigh peoples' fates on that sort of trolley problem anyway.

To quote a Dr. Who fanfic I'm very fond of: "It doesn’t matter if you can kill a tyrant when he’s a child and prevent millions of deaths… you have to be the sort of person that can kill a child in the first place.”

 

[DonIago]

I didn't say I -was- arguing that, I said it -could- be argued...and that was in the context of saving one individual (Jadzia Dax) versus the likely countless number of people who died because Worf failed the mission. My point being that there's no real proof that Ezri Dax saved anyone (from what we see). Of course, we also have no way to know whether saving the informant would really have made a difference either...or perhaps if Worf had saved the informant than the Jem'hadar would have found and destroyed his ship and both Worf and the informant would have died.

I don't believe it's the epitome of morality to reduce such discussions to the simple calculus of which decision most probably will save the most lives (and we obviously have no idea how many lives Jadzia/Ezri might go on to save), but if one wants to view the situation through that lens, then Worf's choice was the wrong choice.

That said, for all we know if Jadzia had died then, even apart from any role the informant might have played, it's possible that other variables would have worked out in ways that would also have saved lives. We have no way to know, which is why I don't really subscribe to this method of decision-making.

 

[kkt]

I don't recall Ezri doing anything pivotal to the war effort in S7 either, so it could be argued that even saving the Dax symbiont was ultimately irrelevant.

Ezri's counseling kept Garak sufficiently sane and comfortable with his role opposing the Dominion-controlled government of Cardassia for him to keep breaking Cardassian codes for the Federation. How many Cardassian spies with knowledge of Cardassian military codes do you think were working for the Alpha Quadrant?

 

[dupersuper]

Fuck, I'd hate to be judged as irrelevant based on one year of my probably quite long life (given Ezri's age).

I know we'll get a "waa, if it's not on screen it doesn't count!!" argument but then at the time of What We Leave Behind you have no idea what's in store for Ezri and neither would Worf. But in the novels her actions as captain of the Aventine likely save far more live than could have been saved by the informant.

I'm all for defending Ezri, but this case goes beyond just "novels aren't canon" and into "most to all of those particular novels are specifically placed in an alternate timeline by the Coda trilogy that ends that novel series" Everything starting at about 2380 at the very least.

 

[DonIago]

Ezri's counseling kept Garak sufficiently sane and comfortable with his role opposing the Dominion-controlled government of Cardassia for him to keep breaking Cardassian codes for the Federation. How many Cardassian spies with knowledge of Cardassian military codes do you think were working for the Alpha Quadrant?

But it's entirely possible that any other counselor could have done at least as good a job as Ezri did, isn't it? That is to say, I don't recall there being anything specific to Ezri Dax that enabled her counseling to work where someone else's would have failed.

 

[dupersuper]

But it's entirely possible that any other counselor could have done at least as good a job as Ezri did, isn't it? That is to say, I don't recall there being anything specific to Ezri Dax that enabled her counseling to work where someone else's would have failed.

Using that logic, it's entirely possible that a different commanding officer could've become emissary and won the war, it's completely possible that another member of the Bajoran military could've stepped up as first officer, it's completely possible that another doctor could've cured the blight, it's completely possible that a different engineer could've overseen DS9's upgrades...that's all moot. These are the characters that did.

 

[DonIago]

What do any of those have to do with the presence or absence of Ezri Dax?

 

[Charles Phipps]

What do any of those have to do with the presence or absence of Ezri Dax?

A couple of points:

1. Worf certainly wasn't choosing to save his wife on Utilitarian grounds and if saving Jadzia to create Ezri saved more lives in the long run (along with any future Daxes), it's irrelevant to the moral calculus.

2. Ezri actually was involved in a number of missions including trying to save Worf that put them on the Cardassian homeworld and making contact with Damar. Among her many activities we have:

A. Helping shut down the criminal syndicate her family was involved in.
B. The Oceans Eleven heist where Vic's life was saved (and he's described as a sentient being).
C. Solving the Vulcan serial killer plotline.
D. Whether or not she's a good counselor or not, she WAS the counselor that helped Garak solve his issues (and strangely I'd argue it's the fact she's a TERRIBLE counselor that actually results in him having his breakthrough as he cant use his genius against someone who is so emotionally vulnerable).

3. There's literally no way that Starfleet could beat the Dominion in military matters, no matter what advantage they had. The Federation won because the Prophets vaporized the Jem'Hadar fleet from the Dominion thanks to Sisko, the Romulans were tricked into fighting them to buy enough time for the S31 plague to kick in, and Odo negotiated an actual peace. Everything else was just theater. Even Damar's revolt didn't do much to actually effect the war's outcome.

The idea of one Cardassian infiltrator having the power to turn the tide of the war is ridiculous.

 

[kkt]

But it's entirely possible that any other counselor could have done at least as good a job as Ezri did, isn't it? That is to say, I don't recall there being anything specific to Ezri Dax that enabled her counseling to work where someone else's would have failed.

Ezri already knew Garak, from six years as Jadzia. That's about six years more than any other counselor had. Garak was a difficult patient with trouble trusting any counselor. I think that made a difference.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Ezri already knew Garak, from six years as Jadzia. That's about six years more than any other counselor had. Garak was a difficult patient with trouble trusting any counselor. I think that made a difference.

Actually, I'd argue that Garak has a breakthrough because he's so contemptuous of Ezri. He'd run rings down a moral seasoned counselor but letting him talk and act superior is what allows him to realize the Dominion has to be stopped no matter the cost.

 

[Watersluis]

I feel this was one of the best decisions Worf could have made because the fact that there IS a limit to his honor and that he cares about his loved ones more than a nebulous cause is deeply humanizing.

Mind you, I'm one of those people who absolutely believed Joel made the right decision in The Last of Us.

Since Terri was leaving anyway, I would have been DOUBLY awful and Worf betrays his honor to save her....and she dies anyway.

Perhaps you would change your opinion if you saw the other countless people die as a result of Worf's decision, or even only the collaborator who sought to join the U.F.P., and died due to Worf's actions.

It is all to easy to forget such thing, if they not be shown on screen.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Perhaps you would change your opinion if you saw the other countless people die as a result of Worf's decision, or even only the collaborator who sought to join the U.F.P., and died due to Worf's actions.

It is all to easy to forget such thing, if they not be shown on screen.

I feel if you condemn someone for saving their spouse then you are someone who also has no heart as Sisko looks here.

No matter how many lives Worf would have saved, I wouldn't be able to look at him with respect again.

No, it's not rational but why would rational be the only reason to judge someone?

 

[Farscape One]

I don't think Sisko looked heartless here at all.

He told Worf, as his commanding officer, that he likely will never be offered a command of his own. But he said directly afterward that he would have done the same thing in his place.

If Sisko were heartless, he wouldn't have made that statement. He told Worf about the command thing because it was his job, but assured him on a personal level that he agreed with him.

When I was in charge of the overnight crew, I have done exactly that... if a scenario called for a corrective action, and I had no choice but to give it, I performed it. But if it was something I disagreed with on a personal level, I made damn sure that person knew it.

 

[Jedi Marso]

See, this is a classic example of why you shouldn't fish in the company pond.

 

[Watersluis]

I feel if you condemn someone for saving their spouse then you are someone who also has no heart as Sisko looks here.

Perhaps so, but not having a heart is what allows a man to look at the bigger picture and not erase suffering simply because he can't directly see it, though it still occurs.

So illogical, these humans.

No matter how many lives Worf would have saved, I wouldn't be able to look at him with respect again.
No, it's not rational but why would rational be the only reason to judge someone?

Because it saves lives and achieves goals.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Because it saves lives and achieves goals.

If you put the lives of those you love at risk for the nebulous many, I don't think you can be trusted.

After all, who are you fighting for if not the people you care for?

 

[Farscape One]

This reminds me of the decision Jack Harkness made in the last episode of TORCHWOOD season 3, "CHILDREN OF EARTH".

He made a horrific decision, but it saved everyone else on Earth.

 

[DonIago]

If you put the lives of those you love at risk for the nebulous many, I don't think you can be trusted.

After all, who are you fighting for if not the people you care for?

If you put the lives of the nebulous many at risk for the lives of those you love, I don't think you can be trusted.

After all, who are you fighting for if not everyone, even if they don't even know you exist, or don't care for you?

It cuts both ways.

 

[Charles Phipps]

If you put the lives of the nebulous many at risk for the lives of those you love, I don't think you can be trusted.

After all, who are you fighting for if not everyone, even if they don't even know you exist, or don't care for you?

It cuts both ways.

I'm not speaking generally. I'm referring specifically to me, just like you are. Which is kind of the point.