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Wookie concept stolen from Dune artist?

Frank Herbert considered suing Lucas for ripping stuff from Dune, like the Jedi being an Order with "mystical" powers (the Dune warrior women) but figured it was futile.
 
And who would be suing Frank Herbert? He's not exactly the first or only person who came up with this concept. And as the OP pointed out, hairy ape-men/creatures aren't exactly unique either. Are they identical? Yeah that is one case where they look a lot alike then how much variation can you make on a sasquatch type being?
 
Frank Herbert considered suing Lucas for ripping stuff from Dune, like the Jedi being an Order with "mystical" powers (the Dune warrior women) but figured it was futile.
Or a lawyer with intro-level knowledge of the subject told him so.

The Jedi are more like Green Lanterns, anyway, who, in turn, bear enough resemblances to the Lensmen to be kind of a ripoff. I personally never thought of the Jedi as being remotely similar to the Bene Gesserit, at least no more similar than both groups are to any other group of ascetics.

But, in any event, I'm pretty sure "space cop" is not a protectable concept; nor is "intelligent sasquatch."

Edit: then again, maybe. Some courts appear to be profoundly stupid when asked to differentiate obviously dissimilar concepts. See National Comics Publications v. Fawcett Publications, where two levels of federal courts managed to not see the patently obvious differences between Captain Marvel and Superman. Granted, this is a really old case, and would almost certainly be decided differently today, but I always like to bring it up whenever someone mentions that Learned Hand was a good appellate judge, when in at least one arena, and perhaps, more he was very incompetent. More recently (Mattel Inc. v. MGA Entm't, Inc.), a USDC judge managed to not distinguish between Barbie and Bratz dolls. I understand the judge's reticence to actually give a shit, but they're not alike in any way except "being made of plastic" and, more specifically, "expressing a female image." Maybe Mattel should sue Minoan fucking Crete. Fortunately the 9th Circuit reversed, on that and other grounds.

P.S.: That painting of the stormtrooper with the lightsaber is rad.
 
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In both cases (Capt Marvel and Bratz) it could be argued they were stealing a concept from the competition that was identical enough to confuse consumers. Although from what I know of the Bratz suit, it was a former Mattel employee who went and created a new line of toys while they supposedly developed Bratz whilst working for Mattel.

I absolutely hate the idea that your creation is owned by your employer if you create it while employed with them although I can see their side if company time/material/resources were used to create it. I just don't buy into the concept that merely being employed grants your employer all rights to your creations.

Either way the story with Star Wars and Dune are just identical enough to make it slightly questionable with the Wookiee but the Jedi is a far reach.
 
Frank Herbert considered suing Lucas for ripping stuff from Dune, like the Jedi being an Order with "mystical" powers (the Dune warrior women) but figured it was futile.

Not to mention Luke = Paul, that was as blatant as Jedi = Bene Gesserit. But at some level, it's all cribbed from longstanding mythology and both the Jedi and Bene Gesserit are Jesuits, so go figure. ;) I think Herbert would have had trouble getting a dime.

The ripoff that I found most striking is Naboo, inspired by the gorgeous Dinotopia books, which I immediately recognized, right down to the victory parade. And of course, Vader's story mirrors both Doctor Doom and Magneto (twin children he knows nothing about till they're grown and fighting him). Since those elements are not from longstanding mythology or history, I'd say they're more objectionable if maybe not any more litigatible (or whatever the word is).

Here's a fun & handy crib sheet to Star Wars biggest ripoffs. Wow, I'd completely forgotten that the Sith were originally from Mars!
 
Actually, I think the revelation of Magneto's with his kids happened AFTER ROTJ. It was like how his more "Mutant Messiah" characterization happened after Scanners with Darryl Revok.
 
teelie said:
In both cases (Capt Marvel and Bratz) it could be argued they were stealing a concept from the competition that was identical enough to confuse consumers. Although from what I know of the Bratz suit, it was a former Mattel employee who went and created a new line of toys while they supposedly developed Bratz whilst working for Mattel.

Well, yeah, the 9th Circuit handled the employment agreement thing too, but I skipped over that part of the opinion. If Carter Bryant gave Mattel the designs by contract, then that's his problem; but Mattel did claim infringement as well, and if Mattel had been able to successfully do that then it would have been (as goofy as it sounds) everybody's problem.

Regarding Detective v. Fawcett--

Learned Hand said:
The evidence does much more than show that this finding was not "clearly erroneous"; it leaves no possible doubt that the copying was deliberate; indeed it takes scarcely more than a glance at corresponding "strips" of "Superman" and "Captain Marvel" to assure the observer that the plagiarism was deliberate and unabashed.

Except, you know, obviously it isn't. Afaik, the same reasonable person standard existed back then--and a reasonable person would have to be high to a confuse blue-and-red solar-powered alien with red-and-white magic-powered street urchin.

Fun fact: Superman actually ripped off Marvel in many (if equally innocuous) ways--Lex Luthor became a bald super-scientist after Sivana was introduced; Superboy is a reinventing of Captain Marvel Jr; Superman only flew after Billy Batson did it first.

But my main point is, the SDNY and 2d Circuit of 1951 are probably the only courts in the world that would be capable of confusing the Jedi and Bene Gesserit, or Wookies and whatever the hell that bushbaby monstrosity was.

I absolutely hate the idea that your creation is owned by your employer if you create it while employed with them although I can see their side if company time/material/resources were used to create it. I just don't buy into the concept that merely being employed grants your employer all rights to your creations.
Well, to my understanding it depends on the contract and the situation in which the creation was made. But no one's absolutely forcing one to divulge their ideas to their employer--the only sanction for keeping mum is the possibility of being reprimanded for lack of productivity. If creators want to keep the rights to their creations, maybe they ought not create them in a work-for-hire context. Like I said, though, in the specific Bratz case I skipped that bit, because I wasn't interested in the terms of Bryant's employment, only in how the 9th Circuit viewed the substantial similarity issue.
 
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Actually, I think the revelation of Magneto's with his kids happened AFTER ROTJ. It was like how his more "Mutant Messiah" characterization happened after Scanners with Darryl Revok.
Oh wow, I looked it up, and it wasn't till 1983 (?!) that the parentage was revealed. For some reason I thought it was in the early X-Men or Avengers books.
 
The Barbie/Bratz thing had that additional intanglement was my point. If he had never been an employee of Mattel, never submitted anything to them and they still successfully sued, then I'd say it was a better comparison and case for this.

The sued-for-theft thing with creating the Bratz while working for Mattel plays into the case as a whole which is why I brought it up. It's not as clear cut as that. It reminds me of McFarlane too and his fight with Spawn. anyhow that's an entirely different discussion.

As to Superman and Captain Marvel:
An adult may be able to discern between Superman and Captain Marvel, but by this time comic books were seen as only for children (and even today except "immature" adults are given some acceptance), who are often more easily confused or swayed by less determined attempts at obfuscation. So besides the fact that Captain Marvel's costume was different, he was in many ways identical to Superman and a direct response to that (IIRC it was all but written in print that this is factual by Marvel), not an after-thought or coincedence or even a copy of a character who was not even in the same medium (the Dune movie notwithstanding having come out after Star Wars did).

Yeah, it is also true DC ripped off Marvel in a big way but the start of who ripped off who goes back to before Marvel existed and before it's merger with several other comic book companies. DC might be the oldest comic in publication (I'd have to verify that but I believe it's true) but it's certainly not the first and not the original. They took ideas from previous works just as everyone these days is somehow influenced by someone else's work.

The question here is how much did George Lucas and Co (if any) steal from Frank Herbert? I'm not sure any courts except the ones you listed could say yeah, George Lucas stole from Frank Herbert but then we could both be wrong and some third court could say Lucas is a dirty rotten thief.
 
Actually, I think the revelation of Magneto's with his kids happened AFTER ROTJ. It was like how his more "Mutant Messiah" characterization happened after Scanners with Darryl Revok.
Oh wow, I looked it up, and it wasn't till 1983 (?!) that the parentage was revealed. For some reason I thought it was in the early X-Men or Avengers books.

I remember it being earlier, too. :wtf: Maybe it was just that Wanda and Pietro had been established as twins before Lucas decided to do the same with Luke and Leia.

Here's another one that's similar to Vader and Luke: in Doctor Strange, Clea discovered that Umar was her mother. I'm certain I read that one in the 70s, unless I'm going totally nuts. :rommie:
 
^I mean, I could have sworn I remembered this being referenced during the Kooky Quartet days.

Hawkeye: I can't believe we're giving sanction to the children of the greatest mutant villain of all time... Magneto!
Captain America: Quiet, Clint! You shoot arrows and I hit people with a shield! They're the only ones with actual superpowers!
 
Oh, hold the phone! Here's a citation that places that revelation earlier...

Wanda and Pietro also met Robert Frank, who briefly joins the Avengers, believing them to be his children.[20] This is later disproved when Wanda and Pietro are abducted by Django Maximoff and taken to Wundagore. Wanda is temporarily possessed by the demon Chthon, but after being released is advised by Bova that neither Frank nor Maximoff is their biological father.[3] Soon after, while trying to track down Magda one last time, Magneto would learn that he was the father of the twins. He immediately informed them of their relationship shortly after the birth of Pietro's daughter Luna.[21]
That citation appears to have a missing date (is George Lucas trying to cover his tracks?!? :rommie:) but is placed chronologically between '74 and '81, which certainly corresponds to my comic-book reading days (mid-70s thru early 80s) when I recall that whole gripping plotline enfolding...
20. Whizzer joins unofficially as of Giant-Size Avengers #1 (1974)
21. Vision and Scarlet Witch #4 ()
22. Avengers #211 (Sep. 1981)
There's also a caption on that page saying "Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch discover their origin in Avengers #185 (July 1979)." Is that the missing date? (That's a different comic book, now I'm corn-fused. :p)

EDIT: Okay, I got another citation!

The Vision starred with fellow Avenger and wife the Scarlet Witch in the limited series Vision and the Scarlet Witch #1-4 (Nov. 1982 - Feb. 1983).
ROTJ was released in May 25, 1983. Most likely those plotlines were developing independently, but the closeness of the dates explains why I remember thinking wtf, Lucas is ripping off The Avengers! :rommie:
 
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The Barbie/Bratz thing had that additional intanglement was my point. If he had never been an employee of Mattel, never submitted anything to them and they still successfully sued, then I'd say it was a better comparison and case for this.

The sued-for-theft thing with creating the Bratz while working for Mattel plays into the case as a whole which is why I brought it up. It's not as clear cut as that.

True. The decision turned on whether a few sketches and such that Bryant did (which Mattel may or may not own) met the substantial similarity test in regards to MGA's product.

(So, yes, I jumped the gun a few posts ago by assuming the Mattel/MGA thing was about Barbies.:alienblush: But Mattel being able to get a court to place the entire Bratz line in a constructive trust even if they owned a small part of the original design work--which is what the district court judge did, and erred in doing so--would still be everybody's problem.)

Also, it's a fun opinion.

J. Kozinski said:
One could make a fashion doll with a large nose instead of a small one, or a potbelly instead of a narrow waist. But there’s not a big market for fashion dolls that look like Patty and Selma Bouvier.

:lol:

He gets it right. In fact, he actually seems to know way too much about the Bratz line, but that's the sort of geeky investigation that's required, instead of Hand's ignorant and false ipse dixit.

The question here is how much did George Lucas and Co (if any) steal from Frank Herbert? I'm not sure any courts except the ones you listed could say yeah, George Lucas stole from Frank Herbert but then we could both be wrong and some third court could say Lucas is a dirty rotten thief.
Well, he is a little, artistically speaking, if not an infringing one... but yeah, you never know.
 
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I thought Lucas got the whole "Villain is the protagonists' father" thing from the New Gods comics in 1971, where Darkseid was Orion's father. And they both got their powers from an all-powerful energy known as "The Source". They were of the two races that could manipulate the Source for their powers. And Orion's "Father Figure" was an old retired warrior who preached of the power of the Source.

Seeing what I'm seeing?

As for Superman, I always figured that he had the first bald scientist villain in the Ultra-Humanite.
 
I thought Lucas got the whole "Villain is the protagonists' father" thing from the New Gods comics in 1971

It certainly influences his work but the connection between Vader and Anakin (and thus Luke) happens quite late in the writing process for Empire rather than being that direct in Star Wars.
 
It is true, isn't it, that the Skywalker connection did not exist in ANH, right?

I mean, it's certainly not particularly evident. It's one reason why I've never given much shrift to the notion that the reveal in ESB is one of the greatest twists in cinema history, because it's just so out of left field. There's a gun on the mantle.

Maybe it's just been too long since I've seen the OT, but I don't recall any clues.
 
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