Wonder Woman animated DVD

[Hermiod]

Are you saying that if scientists can't figure out why women like to live with women and not men that it should be considered unnatural and illogical?

Depends on why they choose to do so. If women choose to live with other women because they like other women then that's one thing. If women choose to live with other women because they hate men, that's another.

Guess which is true here.

 

[3D Master]

We're talking about Amazon who live without men, and the rest of us, who live with both men and women.

Well, not ALL of us. Would having restrooms that allow both men and women make you happy?

We're not busy with a scientific discussion here that requires every single nuance nature can throw at us. LATERHell, science themselves discussing things with simplified terms, and only then goes a step further and discussing a next level of difficulty after they've either come to a consensus of the simplification, or they find they can't meaningfully discuss things without the deeper level.

What does that even mean? Are you saying that if scientists can't figure out why women like to live with women and not men that it should be considered unnatural and illogical?

No, you unbelieveable...

Someone else brought up all the little intersex nuances that scientists identify. I just said it's completely besides the point.

 

[Jeyl]

Someone else brought up all the little intersex nuances that scientists identify. I just said it's completely besides the point.

Since this conversation has spiraled downward, I'll just ask this. What is your point in all this? Who is Wonder Woman to you?

 

[3D Master]

Wonder Woman is a hero, a genuine one, that believes in equality and tries to promote it, and unlike other so-called heroes is not bogged down by pride that she does not ever kill, so she can take that action when it is necessary as well. A warrior for truth.

Me, personally, if I could make an Ultimate DC Wonder Woman; she'd come from a misandrist society that doesn't realize it is misandrist. They consider themselves advocates of equality, when they're in fact not. Diana would be the same in the beginning, until she comes face to face with her own misandry. It completely warps her view of herself, the Amazons and the world. She thinks she doesn't deserve her status as Wonder Woman anymore and renounces the costume. She then goes around the world learning from all types of people, until she puts the costume on again; and she actually takes on her own society, attempting to make them see their own failings.

Also, instead of the Amazons being Immortal, there's another hidden Island nearby that contains men. And the gods makes the Amazons forget any death, and forget that once in a while they open the way for the men to come on the Island, and forget that they dump any sons on the shore for the men to collect.

Diana will uncover this.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Who they are created by, matters not. If they are human, they are NOT meant to live with just one gender

Except they are. The gods created all life on earth, and they created the Amazons to live the way they do.

In other words, dysfunctionally.

A society of all women has NOTHING to tell the rest of society about how men and women should coexist. There's no way they COULD, having no experience with men.

All this "perfect society" talk is just that: TALK. It's politely veiled misandry.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Yes. A society comprised of thinking beings who can communicate and learn cannot possibly teach us humans anything. That statement is flat out discriminating cause the only thing you're using against the amazons is that they're different. The human race has as much to learn from the Amazon society as does the Amazons to the modern human society.

They cannot speak of that which they do not know. An all-female society has NO EXPEREINCE of how to deal with males. This is often expressed in WW by Diana (or another Amazon, if they're off island) getting her toga in a twist by a simple act of courtesy like a man opening a door for a lady, or a woman asking a physically stronger man for help with a problem.

The scene with Diana, Steve, and Etta in the office was a perfect example of this.

Hey, Princess...mortal females aren't as strong as you are!

 

[darkwing_duck1]

might make you a little more sympathetic to those of us who feel ostracized by the binary gendered system Western society holds as "the one and only".

There is no binary-gendered system of Western society. There is the binary-sex system of our BIOLOGY. We've got two sexes, and the sexes were meant to live together; if they didn't, we'd have gone extinct a long time ago.

If you mean gender, say gender. If you mean sex, say sex. You've been using the two terms interchangably, but they're two different words for a reason.

Gender is a social construct, and many societies have had many, many different ways of constructing it. Ours (currently) has two (men and women), but there are (and have been throughout history) cultures that include three genders, five genders, etc. (It makes me wonder if the Amazons themselves have ascribed different gender roles to different people, despite being a single sex society, but I doubt there are any comic writers thinking about it that closely.)

Sex seems to be what you're talking about, but even there, you're still wrong. Even on a physical level, there is a huge amount of diversity in the human condition beyond simply "male" and "female". There are more than a dozen different intersex conditions identified by scientists today, and according to current estimates, about one in one-hundred live births are intersex. Your model of what's "human" discards almost seventy million people world wide (and, again, that's not even getting into gender, and the numerous different ways besides "man" and "woman" that societies group themselves).

In normally functioning humans, your gender is your sex and your sex is your gender.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Hermiod said:
We're discussing misandry as presented in Wonder Woman comics and direct to DVD films right now, in 2009 at a time we as paying readers and viewers can change it.

The whole "women in refrigerators" (and I still say "sidekicks in refrigerators" is a more accurate term) thing doesn't compare because the perpetrators of that violence are presented as villains. The Amazons are not. They are presented as heroes. Whenever they do anything "wrong" there's always a way out, they were misled, it was Circe or some other excuse.

Let's pick a good example of the misogyny you talk about

Violence against female characters is only one version of the misogyny of comics and you know it. Women in Refrigerators is not simply about villains doing violence to female characters, Gail Simone's list as often includes the depowering of female superheroes (didn't that happen to Ms. Marvel, Jean Grey and Wonder Woman for extended periods at various points in their histories?) - something male writers do because female characters are seen as disposable and manipulable plot devices rather than fully fledged characters. You can use a "popularity" argument if you want, but it's false, because it ignores how writing plays into popularity. Superman is more popular, Batman is more popular - why? Because they've been written as more well-rounded, deeply explored versions of the heroic archetype than female characters because the male-dominated field of comics creators simply aren't skilled at placing themselves in the minds of female characters and giving them equal treatment. And female writers can't get jobs very easily at the Big Two. Wonder Woman has been written by a woman for about 2% of her existence!

You'er all het up over a couple of portrayals of Amazons as supposedly misandrist. I say again, the grand bulk of Wonder Woman stories are far more misogynist than misandrist in their patronizing portrayal of powerful women as either really wanting to be dominated by men, as somehow "incomplete" or perverse versions of womanhood, as male-hating supremecists (representing male fears of female power) or as objects of male sexual fantasy. The number of actually feminist portrayals of Wonder Woman I can count on both hands, because they don't break double digits.

This is the reality a female fan of Wonder Woman has to deal with. Can you imagine similar issues for male fans of Superman or Batman? You don't like this story - don't watch it and don't buy it and more power to you. Your review is certainly as valid as anyone's, but the claim that DC has systematically portrayed the Amazons as misandrist or that Wonder Woman by nature is somehow misandrist is just flat wrong. And I will happily continue to introduce the image of powerful, self-sufficient heroine to young girls through selected Wonder Woman stories (the ones that are actually feminist) because god knows such an image is exceedingly hard to come by in our society.

 

[3D Master]

Hermiod said:
We're discussing misandry as presented in Wonder Woman comics and direct to DVD films right now, in 2009 at a time we as paying readers and viewers can change it.

The whole "women in refrigerators" (and I still say "sidekicks in refrigerators" is a more accurate term) thing doesn't compare because the perpetrators of that violence are presented as villains. The Amazons are not. They are presented as heroes. Whenever they do anything "wrong" there's always a way out, they were misled, it was Circe or some other excuse.

Let's pick a good example of the misogyny you talk about

Violence against female characters is only one version of the misogyny of comics and you know it. Women in Refrigerators is not simply about villains doing violence to female characters, Gail Simone's list as often includes the depowering of female superheroes (didn't that happen to Ms. Marvel, Jean Grey and Wonder Woman for extended periods at various points in their histories?) - something male writers do because female characters are seen as disposable and manipulable plot devices rather than fully fledged characters.

Ugh. Male superheroes have had their powers lost just as well. Superman has a special Kryptonite that depowers him. The grey hulk was never as powerful as the green hulk. Captain America has gone both up and down. Spider-man has lost his powers on a multitude of occasions; etc. etc. etc. etc.

You'er all het up over a couple of portrayals of Amazons as supposedly misandrist. I say again, the grand bulk of Wonder Woman stories are far more misogynist than misandrist in their patronizing portrayal of powerful women as either really wanting to be dominated by men, as somehow "incomplete" or perverse versions of womanhood, as male-hating supremecists (representing male fears of female power) or as objects of male sexual fantasy. The number of actually feminist portrayals of Wonder Woman I can count on both hands, because they don't break double digits.

This is the reality a female fan of Wonder Woman has to deal with. Can you imagine similar issues for male fans of Superman or Batman? You don't like this story - don't watch it and don't buy it and more power to you. Your review is certainly as valid as anyone's, but the claim that DC has systematically portrayed the Amazons as misandrist or that Wonder Woman by nature is somehow misandrist is just flat wrong. And I will happily continue to introduce the image of powerful, self-sufficient heroine to young girls through selected Wonder Woman stories (the ones that are actually feminist) because god knows such an image is exceedingly hard to come by in our society.

That's because feminism is more and more misandrist; if it isn't outright become misandry. What one should be looking for, is humanist Wonder Woman; not a Wonder Woman that panders to a movement that's been eaten away by rot.

 

[Jeyl]

What one should be looking for, is humanist Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman isn't a humanist? Most illogical. How can she not be a humanist if she goes out of her way in great lengths to save the world for god knows how many times? She killed to save Batman and Superman, both of whom are men! What are you thinking?

 

[Ceridwen]

In normally functioning humans, your gender is your sex and your sex is your gender.

 

[3D Master]

What one should be looking for, is humanist Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman isn't a humanist? Most illogical. How can she not be a humanist if she goes out of her way in great lengths to save the world for god knows how many times? She killed to save Batman and Superman, both of whom are men! What are you thinking?

Are you incapable of reading or something? Or do you have non-functional short-term memory to long-term memory processing? You see, if you bothered to read and keep up on the discussion, you'd know my answer was to someone who constantly whined about Wonder Woman not being written "feminist". (Which begs the question why you haven't posted the same ridiculous question to him or her.)

 

[Jeyl]

Are you incapable of reading or something? Or do you have non-functional short-term memory to long-term memory processing? You see, if you bothered to read and keep up on the discussion, you'd know my answer was to someone who constantly whined about Wonder Woman not being written "feminist". (Which begs the question why you haven't posted the same ridiculous question to him or her.)

I've always looked at Wonder Woman as a humanist. I just think it's kind of awkward that you think she should be portrayed as such when she already is!

 

[3D Master]

Where did I claim that she isn't!?

Again the short-term to long-term memory problems.

 

[Jeyl]

Well, I for one believe that a large part of Wonder Woman's humanism does stem from her Amazon heritage, which is something you deem to be very misandrist. The loving care and support from her mother and fellow amazons, the gifts from the gods and the intent on pursuit of truth? All of these elements are a central part to her character even after she's on her own as Wonder Woman.

She would protect her mother and fellow Amazons as much as she would protect anyone else, male or female.

 

[CaptainCanada]

This is often expressed in WW by Diana (or another Amazon, if they're off island) getting her toga in a twist by a simple act of courtesy like a man opening a door for a lady,

Which is a gendered thing based on men doing stuff for women because they're weaker; I mean, I do it myself because it's considered polite, but that's the source of it. It's not considered routine for men to open doors for each other.

or a woman asking a physically stronger man for help with a problem.

The scene with Diana, Steve, and Etta in the office was a perfect example of this.

Hey, Princess...mortal females aren't as strong as you are!

Except that scene clearly shows that Etta could do it herself, but is indeed doing exactly what Diana points out.

Violence against female characters is only one version of the misogyny of comics and you know it. Women in Refrigerators is not simply about villains doing violence to female characters, Gail Simone's list as often includes the depowering of female superheroes

WiR has some good specific points, but the list when it includes stuff like that casts far too wide a net, without context, and ignores similiar situations for male heroes.

(didn't that happen to Ms. Marvel,

Certainly, her history has rough patches (the editorial/writing mismatch of Avengers #200), but that's not WiR by any reasonable stretch. She lost her powers for a time, but it had nothing to do with any male character; if anything, it was setup for Claremont to introduce Rogue, a female hero, and Carol spent a few years in the X-books as an unofficial team member and badass normal, before becoming (as with many a Claremont female) uber-powerful (so powerful, even, that writers had a hard time using her, and Busiek ultimately brought her down to more reasonable levels in his Avengers run).

Jean Grey

Hrm...not that I can think of (though that was part of Claremont's original ending to "Dark Phoenix", which would've led into another arc that would have written her and Cyclops out of the book; an arc that was eventually completed with Madelyne Pryor instead).

and Wonder Woman for extended periods at various points in their histories?)

A rather dire creative period, but nonpowered female characters like Emma Peel were very popular at the time and the writers were trying to jump onto the trend and fix a book that wasn't doing well; there's a tremendous amount of nostalgia for that period in many quarters, but it's just not recognizably Wonder Woman (which is actually rather interesting, when you think about it; a revamp of a corporate character like that today would never in a million years begin by discarding so much trademarked iconography).

something male writers do because female characters are seen as disposable and manipulable plot devices rather than fully fledged characters.

Sometimes, sure; but in a Spider-Man comic, for example, his supporting cast, male and female, is all there to service drama for him, not the other way around.

You can use a "popularity" argument if you want, but it's false, because it ignores how writing plays into popularity. Superman is more popular, Batman is more popular - why? Because they've been written as more well-rounded, deeply explored versions of the heroic archetype than female characters because the male-dominated field of comics creators simply aren't skilled at placing themselves in the minds of female characters and giving them equal treatment.

To an extent, again, but comparing Diana to either of them hurts the character, in my opinion; she's never been close to them in popularity, nor has anyone else at DC. Male writers can write as many excellent stories starring, say, Green Lantern, and they'll never make him as big as the others.

 

[CommodoreKong]

I finally got a chance to watch Wonder Woman today and I really enjoyed it. It was fun, had great action scenes, was funny and face paced. Easily the best movie in this series besides The New Frontier.

Since really all I know about Wonder Woman came from JL and JLU I'm not even going to comment on this argument going on right now. All I know is I enjoyed the movie. I'll have to check out the special features soon, we've been getting some pretty good documentaries on these DVDs.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

I finally got a chance to watch Wonder Woman today and I really enjoyed it. It was fun, had great action scenes, was funny and face paced. Easily the best movie in this series besides The New Frontier.

Since really all I know about Wonder Woman came from JL and JLU I'm not even going to comment on this argument going on right now. All I know is I enjoyed the movie. I'll have to check out the special features soon, we've been getting some pretty good documentaries on these DVDs.

I'm in the same boat and I agree completely. I didn't even object to some of the complaints in this thread, specifically Diana's power fluctuating...when she first fought steve she was obviously subduing him, not trying to murder him as if he were Doomsday, sheesh.

And her mother's reaction to Diana's winning of the tournament? I totally got it - very stoic, dignified. It was as if this wise person went "ok, I get it, she is the champion" with class and grace.

 

[Hermiod]

Violence against female characters is only one version of the misogyny of comics and you know it. Women in Refrigerators is not simply about villains doing violence to female characters, Gail Simone's list as often includes the depowering of female superheroes (didn't that happen to Ms. Marvel, Jean Grey and Wonder Woman for extended periods at various points in their histories?) - something male writers do because female characters are seen as disposable and manipulable plot devices rather than fully fledged characters.

Ah, you see you just picked on the absolute worst example you could have with me - depowering. Every superhero gets depowered. Superman has Kryptonite. He gets depowered every other week. If you add up all the time he has spent being exposed to Kryptonite, he's spent more time depowered than every single female superheroine in comics put together and that's not even counting his recent year long depowering. It's happened to every male superhero I can think of with the exception of those who don't have any powers to lose.

The worst abuser of this is Smallville - a show where Clark is routinely depowered by female villains who, inexplicably, relieve him of his shirt too. This is pornography for teenage girls. Somewhere, somebody likes the idea of powerful men being half naked, restrained and powerless in front of them. It's not just Clark either, we've got Green Arrow to add to that list now as well.

Don't believe me ? Have a look at the promo photos for the very next episode airing this week or next week, I believe. The woman doing it is even number two on the list of top superheroines who aren't at all heroic - Zatanna. Already this season we've had Maxima stroll in and casually beat Clark up too.

Or watch it happen to Peter Petrelli for the umpteenth time on Heroes. Quite frankly, someone somewhere is feeding in to some female masturbatory fantasy.

You can use a "popularity" argument if you want, but it's false, because it ignores how writing plays into popularity. Superman is more popular, Batman is more popular - why? Because they've been written as more well-rounded, deeply explored versions of the heroic archetype than female characters because the male-dominated field of comics creators simply aren't skilled at placing themselves in the minds of female characters and giving them equal treatment. And female writers can't get jobs very easily at the Big Two. Wonder Woman has been written by a woman for about 2% of her existence!

It is about popularity. You want comics to appeal more to girls and women, then girls and women better start bloody buying some. The comic book industry needs the money. You don't get anything for free in this world. You want people to write for you, you need to cough up.

You'er all het up over a couple of portrayals of Amazons as supposedly misandrist. I say again, the grand bulk of Wonder Woman stories are far more misogynist than misandrist in their patronizing portrayal of powerful women as either really wanting to be dominated by men, as somehow "incomplete" or perverse versions of womanhood, as male-hating supremecists (representing male fears of female power) or as objects of male sexual fantasy. The number of actually feminist portrayals of Wonder Woman I can count on both hands, because they don't break double digits.

So you agree that they have been portrayed as male hating supremacists ?

Wonder Woman is supposedly the perfect woman, so yeah, being drooled over by a few teenage boys is part of the package. However, I refer you back to Smallville. It's why the show has survived on a woman's network and has just been renewed. It works both ways.

It's been going on for decades. Remember the girl in the movie version of Supergirl who had a poster of Superman on her wall ?

This is the reality a female fan of Wonder Woman has to deal with. Can you imagine similar issues for male fans of Superman or Batman? You don't like this story - don't watch it and don't buy it and more power to you. Your review is certainly as valid as anyone's, but the claim that DC has systematically portrayed the Amazons as misandrist or that Wonder Woman by nature is somehow misandrist is just flat wrong. And I will happily continue to introduce the image of powerful, self-sufficient heroine to young girls through selected Wonder Woman stories (the ones that are actually feminist) because god knows such an image is exceedingly hard to come by in our society.

I didn't say DC has systematically portrayed the Amazons as misandrist, I said everyone has. Portrayals of this mythical culture from Xena to Futurama are always based on one thing - a female only society that rejects men.

Rejecting men, just once, is misandry. Not accepting men as your equals is misandry.

 

[Ceridwen]

You want comics to appeal more to girls and women, then girls and women better start bloody buying some. The comic book industry needs the money. You don't get anything for free in this world. You want people to write for you, you need to cough up.

We buy plenty of comics. We just tend to buy them in book stores, since walking into most comic book stores feels not unlike entering a boys' locker room; it smells bad, and you always feel like you've just interrupted a conversation about molestation.

Rejecting men, just once, is misandry. Not accepting men as your equals is misandry.

Every woman who rides a city bus must be a misandrist in your book, huh?