"Women may not serve on the Council."

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by EJA, Oct 13, 2010.

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  1. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    The way I saw it was that it was a Gowron rule, and it could be changed by the next Chancellor.

    Also, from what I understood, you kept your seat on The High Council at the Chancellor's pleasure, or until another powerful family drove you out. So if a female was the Head of a powerful House by her own doing (Killing or proving the weakness of the male heir) she could sit on the High Council, with the Chancellors consent, for as long as she stayed strong enough to hold it.
     
  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If we choose to simply disbelieve in "Redemption", we might just as well argue that Gowron swallowed a "the" there.

    That is, the dialogue "actually" went like this:

    There could be all sorts of perfectly reasonable reasons for preventing specific individuals from serving on the Council. Say, they may well have a criminal record. Or they already hold positions that are at odds with Council ones.

    Or then Gowron isn't saying that [these] women are banned from serving on the Council. He may be saying that [these] women have chosen and avowed never to serve on the Council. For a Klingon, such a personal conviction would be a much stronger force than the mere letter of law, and would forever prevent the sisters from personally assuming Chancellorship; for Picard, it would be natural to misinterpret Gowron's words as referring to the letter of law instead.

    Or then Gowron is simply saying that he (and his allies) will never allow the Duras sisters to serve on the Council, and Picard mistakes this for there being some sort of an objective mechanism in place to prevent them from serving. If the mechanism is simply Gowron's hatred, Picard shouldn't be convinced - even though in practice, Klingon wrath may be a far more solid obstacle than some dead letter of the law.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. EJA

    EJA Fleet Captain

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    It couldn't have been Gowron's law though, because when he told Picard about it, he hadn't yet been installed as Chancellor.
     
  4. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The producers were aware of this, even double-checked it, and decided that they needed to ignore it for the sake of the story.
     
  5. DrTaylor

    DrTaylor Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I think the thing is that the lines of succession in the Klingon government are unclear. We know that killing the chancellor in honorable combat makes one chancellor, unless you abdicate. How, then, did it get down to Gowron and Duras in the first place to replace K'Mpec? What makes them the front runners? How does FutureAlexander in "Firstborn" come to lead his house while his father is still alive? What makes Worf not able to lead the house anymore? What about Grilka, who was granted the right to lead her house? If we assume that the lines of succession are in some way father to son in an extreme situation when the Chancellor is not killed by a Klingon in honorable combat, maybe Gorkon's supporters could have been pushed to accept Azetbur, especially if he set that up beforehand (he had to know assassination was a possiblity).
     
  6. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Then maybe K'mpec or a Chancellor between him and after Azetbur decided a female couldn't sit on the Council. Gowron then implied he'd undo that rule if K'Ehlyr if she'd persuade Picard to choose him as the next Chancellor.
     
  7. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or then K'ehleyr turned down Gowron's offer because it only covered him getting her a piece of furniture from the Council Chamber. ;)

    Really, let's examine what Gowron actually said to her:

    Intriguingly, Gowron doesn't really offer K'ehleyr anything. He merely asks her two questions, then inserts some innuendo. K'ehleyr declines to take the bait, and that's that.

    We can't be sure that it would have been possible for K'ehleyr to ever get a seat on the Council, or even command of a ship. Perhaps Gowron was saying that those two dreams were utterly unrealistic and K'ehleyr was being unreasonable - but that there were things that she could attain, and allying with Gowron was the way to get those things.

    OTOH, K'ehleyr's response might well be taken as literally confirming that a Council seat or a captaincy would be things unattainable to K'ehleyr or any other female currently, but attainable if Gowron came to power and altered the rules.

    I'd argue that there must be a rule that prevents random rabble from challenging the Chancellor - otherwise he or she would be swamped with duels every morning, and unable to get any governing done. To challenge a top leader, one probably has to already occupy the rung immediately below. A Gunner's Mate can't challenge the Captain if the XO has failed to challenge the Captain - the Mate has to challenge the XO first.

    That is, Worf could challenge Gowron to a fight only if Gowron personally agreed to such a thing. Normally, Gowron could simply humiliate his challenger by sending him to face one of Gowron's bodyguards. But whatever Gowron was, he never was a coward who'd shy away from the demands of Klingon honor if maneuvered into facing such demands; and this once, he thought that a little show of traditional honorable conduct would be politically advantageous, whereas dismissing Worf would cost him massively on the political arena in this tense situation. Perhaps a leader in war is also more open to impromptu challengers than a leader in peace?

    The idea that only the next in succession can issue a challenge to a leader would be consistent with much that we see, though. Azetbuhr need not have been merely Gorkon's daughter; she may also have been a prominent politician, or perhaps one of Gorkon's generals.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  8. Dar70

    Dar70 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well someone changed it during that short span. L'rell of course was Chancellor on STDiscovery. So two female Klingons we know of that were on the council. Just watched redemption. Great two parter. So I thought I would respond to this old thread... when I heard that line of looked up a discussion here...:D
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2020
  9. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you think about it, a tremendious amount of what Star Trek is comes from isolated statements and one time events. That's why Gowron's words matter.
    Yeah, but would she be chancellar at all if she didn't have control of that detonator?
     
  10. Mutai Sho-Rin

    Mutai Sho-Rin Crusty Old Bastard Moderator

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    It just ain’t right to dredge up an almost TEN year old thread. Start a new one if you wish but this one goes...
    CLANG!
     
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