Women and positons of power in TOS

[jgdst]

Actually we didn't see male Andorian or Tellarite captains on TOS.

So your point was?

My point was concerning Enterprise, not TOS. We do see Andorian and Tellarite commanders there ... but strangely enough, no women.

Perhaps an Enterprise expert could help us, here: Do we see any female starship commanders, human or alien, besides Erika Hernandez during that series' run?

I think as close as it gets in Enteprise is Mayweather's mother pretty much co-commanding the cargo ship Horizon (again, not Federation, not even Starfleet, and only after her husband died), and in the episode Proving Ground, the Andorian tactical officer implies her mother is fairly high up the chain of command, but we never see her.

There have been a couple of higher ranking Vulcans shown (an example being T'Mir taking command in Carbon Creek, again after the captain's death), and Major Hayes names a female Corporal Mackenzie as his successor of leading the MACOs after he dies... apart from promotion by dead man's boots, there's very little evidence of women being given their own commands

Edit - according to Memory Alpha, there's a female Commodore in Demons/Terra Prime... you'd assume she'd at least been a captain with her own command to get to this point...

There's a conspiracy afoot!

 

[T'Bonz]

As for other races, I think the imperious leader of this very board might have a word with you about alien female commanders in TOS.

The answer is quite simple and has nothing to do with the world of Star Trek, other than the very real fact that the creators of said world lived in a world of different attitudes than we do.

Women were often portrayed on television as silly and childlike at worst, or in need of a man's guidance at best. There were exceptions to the rule, but it was very much a man's world in the 1960s. And it wasn't quite yet a woman's world, speaks the woman who was told as a young girl many times, "You can't do 'whatever', that's for boys/men."

I always wondered "why?" Most of these things were not IMPOSSIBLE for a girl or woman to do, it was just forbidden or at the very least, frowned upon.

So the answer is very simple. Janice Lester wasn't just "crazy," so crazy that she could never become a captain, she was a woman written in the 1960s. A woman could be a telephone operator (Uhura) or a nurse (Chapel) or a secretary/assistant (Rand), but no, a woman back then would have NEVER been a captain.

So I don't see the necessity of trying to explain in Star Trek world terms why there weren't woman captains in Kirk's early times. There weren't! Why try to fix what wasn't a problem with the FUTURE, but with the time of the creation of the show.

I don't have a problem with that, as it wasn't Star Trek's doing (the future wouldn't be like that, one would assume,) but it was those living in the 1960s writing/producing/financing the show who wouldn't permit women to be more than girls.

Fortunately, we've come past that. My girls never had to hear that "You can't play baseball/football with us, you're a girl," or "You can't play with fun toy cars. Dress this silly-assed doll and brush her hair!" (oh joy. oh excitement! oh dullsville!) or "I don't care if it's neg 20 this morning. You must wear a short dress to school. Pants are for boys."

Girls can run a ship now and do many things that were forbidden to them.

And the world hasn't been destroyed because of it.

I can't say I agree with Roddenberry's morals. But although he wasn't averse to sexual congress with all and sundry, he also was much more willing than most men of the era to see woman as more than "helpers". That was very much a minority attitude and almost, but not quite, redeems him in my eyes.

 

[maryh]

People seem to forget that the character of Number One in the first pilot was a very high position of power, but the audiences reacted negatively to that character. They MIGHT have assumed wrongly, that the audiences didn't want a woman in that position whereas they might have just disliked her computerized personality. I don't know but in any case sometimes I feel like this is a perfect example of why ST weakened. ST is entertainment. If the audience reacts negatively to something, why shove it in their faces?

Seems to me that ST has become obsessed with making social, moral or political statements instead of just plain old entertaining us. If I were redoing ST I wouldn't necessarily shove a woman into any position just to make a statement rather I'd do exactly what this movies is doing, beef up the female roles. It seems a shame to me that Uhura never did any clever things with her communications role, she never jammed the enemies boards, helped Spock with circuitry repairs (a communications expert would certainly know the guts of the board), made announcements, or found clever ways of tracking them when they lost communications with somebody. Same can be said of other female roles. Just use them effectively and they will be accepted, make a statement and it won't work as well. I have no problem with female star ship commanders, but they gotta be likable - unlike Janeway.

The audience also reacted negatively to Turnabout Intruder. Hopefully we won't see those attitudes again because it is not what the audience wants.

 

[JM1776]

We only saw a couple of other starship captains in Enterprise simply because there weren't that many other starships around.

Really? We saw Pike, Kirk, Decker, Stone, Tracey and Wesley—all healthy male WASPs, insofar as I can tell.

Lester's line about Kirk's world of starship captains just refers to Kirk ...

That's simply an opinion—an interpretation of dialogue.

I don't think a show where you've got a woman pulling communications equipment to bits and putting it back together again really devalued women that much.

I agree ... but ever-so-magnanimously allowing that women are competent and allowing them to command starships are horses of entirely different colors.

Note that Number One disappeared because it was thought in some circles ridiculous that a woman would have that kind of authority on the bridge of a starship ... and we never saw one again until Star Trek IV.

As for other races, I think the imperious leader of this very board might have a word with you about alien female commanders in TOS.

I'm sure she's quite capable of speaking for herself if she wishes to do so.

I would have much preferred to see the Romulan Commander presented as a truly formidable adversary. Instead, they portrayed her in some measure as a chick on the make. I've seen wonderfully redemptive fanfics concerning the character ... but, frankly, it's entirely possible she would have been executed for incompetence and sheer stupidity upon her return to Romulus.

 

[Hermiod]

As for other races, I think the imperious leader of this very board might have a word with you about alien female commanders in TOS.

The answer is quite simple and has nothing to do with the world of Star Trek, other than the very real fact that the creators of said world lived in a world of different attitudes than we do.

Women were often portrayed on television as silly and childlike at worst, or in need of a man's guidance at best. There were exceptions to the rule, but it was very much a man's world in the 1960s. And it wasn't quite yet a woman's world, speaks the woman who was told as a young girl many times, "You can't do 'whatever', that's for boys/men."

I always wondered "why?" Most of these things were not IMPOSSIBLE for a girl or woman to do, it was just forbidden or at the very least, frowned upon.

So the answer is very simple. Janice Lester wasn't just "crazy," so crazy that she could never become a captain, she was a woman written in the 1960s. A woman could be a telephone operator (Uhura) or a nurse (Chapel) or a secretary/assistant (Rand), but no, a woman back then would have NEVER been a captain.

So I don't see the necessity of trying to explain in Star Trek world terms why there weren't woman captains in Kirk's early times. There weren't! Why try to fix what wasn't a problem with the FUTURE, but with the time of the creation of the show.

I don't have a problem with that, as it wasn't Star Trek's doing (the future wouldn't be like that, one would assume,) but it was those living in the 1960s writing/producing/financing the show who wouldn't permit women to be more than girls.

Fortunately, we've come past that. My girls never had to hear that "You can't play baseball/football with us, you're a girl," or "You can't play with fun toy cars. Dress this silly-assed doll and brush her hair!" (oh joy. oh excitement! oh dullsville!) or "I don't care if it's neg 20 this morning. You must wear a short dress to school. Pants are for boys."

Girls can run a ship now and do many things that were forbidden to them.

And the world hasn't been destroyed because of it.

I can't say I agree with Roddenberry's morals. But although he wasn't averse to sexual congress with all and sundry, he also was much more willing than most men of the era to see woman as more than "helpers". That was very much a minority attitude and almost, but not quite, redeems him in my eyes.

Erm, I actually just meant that your avatar is of a female Romulan starship commander.

 

[Hermiod]

We only saw a couple of other starship captains in Enterprise simply because there weren't that many other starships around.

Really? We saw Pike, Kirk, Decker, Stone, Tracey and Wesley—all healthy male WASPs, insofar as I can tell.

We didn't see anything of the sort in ENTERPRISE.

I'm sure she's quite capable of speaking for herself if she wishes to do so.

And she has, very effectively.

 

[JM1776]

So I don't see the necessity of trying to explain in Star Trek world terms why there weren't woman captains in Kirk's early times.

That would, of course, apply equally to explaining why they were really there even though we didn't see them, I assume.

There's never a "necessity" to explain any of this stuff ... but many who enjoy the series nevertheless do it regularly. I've just always found revisionist history, whether fictional or actual, tiresome.

 

[JM1776]

We didn't see anything of the sort in Enterprise.

Yeah, we did. When the trio of starships bails Enterprise out upon their return to the Sol system directly after the Xindi attack on Earth, the commander who hails Archer is, you guessed it, a man. The admiral with whom he usually interacts is a man, and we see no female members of the admiralty even in passing, unless I'm mistaken. The only human female officer on Enterprise's crew is a mere ensign, also falling into the "nothing but junior officers" category. Do we even see any other female officers in the background on Enterprise? I recall Cutler, but she was a crewman, I believe. What about it, Enterprise fans? Are there female officers above the rank of lieutenant running around in background shots?

Hernandez is, arguably, an anomaly and/or a token—an exception that proves the rule rather than breaking it, even though she really doesn't break it, as I've explained above.

And she has, very effectively.

And if her opinion had more weight than anyone else's, perhaps I'd be persuaded ... but it doesn't, and I'm not. I respect T'Bonz's take, and find it reasonable. Why shouldn't I, considering that I agree with her? Mine as relates to the in-series explanation is also reasonable ... and slightly shaken, let alone comprehensively refuted, by nothing I've seen here. Your referral to her, Hermiod, is what's called in formal logic a fallacious appeal to authority.

Like I've said, I don't condone what I saw. I accept it as an outgrowth of the era in which Trek was made. I don't attempt to whitewash it now because I find it distasteful, and allow the 2260's to reflect the 1960's, even as later eras do the times in which they were made—as I've been saying all along. The fact that I interpret canon to justify that is simply an intellectual exercise, not an axe to grind.

 

[Hermiod]

Yeah, we did. When the trio of starships bails Enterprise out upon their return to the Sol system directly after the Xindi attack on Earth, the commander who hails Archer is, you guessed it, a man. The admiral with whom he usually interacts is a man, and we see no female members of the admiralty even in passing, unless I'm mistaken. The only human female officer on Enterprise's crew is a mere ensign, also falling into the "nothing but junior officers" category.

The captain of the next NX-class Starship was a woman as you well know.

Do we even see any other female officers in the background on Enterprise? I recall Cutler, but she was a crewman, I believe. What about it, Enterprise fans? Are there female officers above the rank of lieutenant running around in background shots?

There's only three people on the Enterprise above the rank of Lieutenant. The Lieutenant Commander rank did not exist at that point. Only Subcommander and later Commander T'Pol, Commander Tucker and Captain Archer were above Lieutenant.

The "issue" that T'Pol was a woman never came up. In the alternate future presented in "Twilight", no issue was made of T'Pol (an alien as well as a woman) being promoted to the rank of Captain in Earth's Starfleet.

T'Pol was initially distrusted early on in the series but that was because she was a Vulcan, not because she was a woman.

And if her opinion had more weight than anyone else's, perhaps I'd be persuaded ... but it doesn't, and I'm not. I respect T'Bonz's take, and find it reasonable. Why shouldn't I, considering that I agree with her? Mine as relates to the in-series explanation is also reasonable ... and slightly shaken, let alone comprehensively refuted, by nothing I've seen here. Your referral to her, Hermiod, is what's called in formal logic a fallacious appeal to authority.

I referred to T'Bonz for a very simple reason - her avatar which shows the Romulan Commander played by Joanne Linville.

 

[JM1776]

The captain of the next NX-class starship was a woman as you well know.

Asked and answered—definitively and more than once—above.

There'[re] only three people on the Enterprise above the rank of lieutenant. The lieutenant commander rank did not exist at that point. Only Subcommander and later Commander T'Pol, Commander Tucker and Captain Archer were above lieutenant.

Interesting, then, that one would have two officers of commander rank (assuming Vulcan sub-commander equates to Terran full commander) aboard NX-01, and none aboard Pike's if we're accepting Number One as the permanent X-O, which possesses a much larger crew complement.

Oh, and ... if you're implying that "lieutenant commander" did not exist because we never saw it, well ... thank you for supporting my point about female Federation starship captains during TOS: They didn't exist because we never saw them, according to your own logic.

Hoist on your own Picard, there, dude.

The "issue" that T'Pol was a woman never came up. In the alternate future presented in "Twilight", no issue was made of T'Pol (an alien as well as a woman) being promoted to the rank of captain in Earth's Starfleet. T'Pol was initially distrusted early on in the series but that was because she was a Vulcan, not because she was a woman.

So it's your assertion that a one-shot show written thirty-years plus after the fact about an alternate reality in which the Federation never existed is somehow applicable to the question of whether females commanded Federation starships in the TOS period?

Um ... no. Near total non-sequitur.

We're going round and round—that is, getting absolutely nowhere, Hermiod, as seems to often occur when we converse. Since you're clearly a devoted disciple of the "I Won't Even Entertain that Possibility" school of discourse, I'll stop trying to ... err ... entertain you.

Your opinion is noted. Enjoy your Trek.

 

[JM1776]

... according to Memory Alpha, there's a female commodore in "Demons"/"Terra Prime"...

Good eye, dude.

...you'd assume she'd at least been a captain with her own command to get to this point...

"Own command"? Absolutely.

"Own ship command"? Not necessarily.

A real world analog: Retired U.S. Navy officer Patricia Ann Tracey never commanded a ship, yet rose to the rank of vice admiral.

Commodore Stocker in TOS never did, either—well, except for that one time, and Jim had to bail his "chair bound paper pusher" ass outta that one.

 

[Hermiod]

Oh, and ... if you're implying that "lieutenant commander" did not exist because we never saw it, well ... thank you for supporting my point about female Federation starship captains during TOS: They didn't exist because we never saw them, according to your own logic.

The fact that the Lieutenant Commander rank did not exist in Earth's Starfleet comes from Enterprise's costume department who did not design a rank insignia for that rank. It skips straight from Lieutenant to Commander.

So it's your assertion that a one-shot show written thirty-years plus after the fact about an alternate reality in which the Federation never existed is somehow applicable to the question of whether females commanded Federation starships in the TOS period?

Um ... no. Near total non-sequitur.

Of course it's legitimate. She was promoted to Captain before Earth was destroyed in that reality. She even ditched the skin-tight outfit.

The fact is that in any situation where Archer was not available, T'Pol commanded the ship ably with no question or complain about her being a woman.

Earth's Starfleet is the same one that continued to exist when the Federation was created. I strongly doubt they instituted any new rules about women becoming Starship commanders.

We're going round and round—that is, getting absolutely nowhere, Hermiod, as seems to often occur when we converse. Since you're clearly a devoted disciple of the "I Won't Even Entertain that Possibility" school of discourse, I'll stop trying to ... err ... entertain you.

I talk with a great many people on this forum, you'll forgive me for the fact that I have no idea who you are or what we might have talked about in the past.

If you show me some real proof that Janice Lester's one off line somehow outweighs the previous three years of the show, then I'll entertain the possibility that I'm wrong about Star Trek's treatment of women. In the meantime, I'll just carry on doing what you suggest - enjoying my Star Trek and all of its strong, intelligent, capable female characters.

 

[JM1776]

I talk with a great many people on this forum, you'll forgive me for the fact that I have no idea who you are or what we might have talked about in the past.

We were discussing Andy Murray in Sports and Fitness. I bowed out when I realized there was little to be gained from continuing the discussion—as I'm attempting to do now.

If you show me some real proof that Janice Lester's one off line somehow outweighs the previous three years of the show, then I'll entertain the possibility that I'm wrong about Star Trek's treatment of women.

From where I sit, the burden of proof would be on the person who asserts the existence of something never seen—that is, my lieutenant commanders in Enterprise ... and your female Federation starship captains in TOS.

In the meantime, I'll just carry on doing what you suggest—enjoying my Star Trek and all of its strong, intelligent, capable female characters.

I'll assume for the sake of board amity that you're not accusing me of misogyny or chauvinism simply because we interpret the canon differently.

As to the other matter ... we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Hermiod]

I'll assume for the sake of board amity that you're not accusing me of misogyny or chauvinism simply because we interpret the canon differently.

As to the other matter ... we'll agree to disagree.

I'm not accusing you of anything. I may not be around here much longer so please don't take my disagreement with you on this issue or Andy Murray as any kind of personal one.

 

[JM1776]

I'm certainly happy to take you at your word.

See you around if you remain, and best of luck in your future endeavors if you depart.

Oh, and ... we have one thing in common—an affection for Ms. Marvel.

I liked her more in her early days, though.

 

[3D Master]

I really didn't mean any insult to Roddenberry. I gave him credit for Number One, trying to have a female first officer then was very progressive.
That said, has there ever been any explanation for the logic of female officers in go go boots and mini dresses? Other than the sex appeal that is.

Ah, not this again.

Empowerment, actually.

The miniskirts was the idea of Grace Lee Whitney, the actRESS that played Yeomen Rand.

Back then, the miniskirt wasn't seen as anything degrading or depowering, quite the opposite really. Up until that time, women (and men) were fitted in things that showed a lot, lot less, they were practically wearing bhurka (yes, women and men, go find the average beach apparel of the fifties and before. :shudders: ) So the miniskirts and the younger generation wearing them was basically a big fu to the older guard and showing off their new found power.

It's only now, as (especially the American society) seems to go more and more back to the fifties view of what women and men (and especially women, from feminism no less) should show or not show, that miniskirts somehow seem the opposite.

Interesting theory that Jancie was babbling nonsense about that. It's been a couple of years since I saw that episode, but didn't Kirk agree with what she said, even say that he disagreed with the rule?

Well, the thing is, that the way Kirk talks about her and women, if taken at face value is EXTREMELY degrading. Especially the "She could have been as happy as any other woman" line. And when you look at it, it just doesn't make any sense given the way he's treated and looked at women before, most notably the awe and reverence to the Vulcan Matriarch T'Pau. Which gets us Spock. Spock is raised in a matriarchal system, where women have long since been the heads in the families and such, and the heads of state, even though it's been equal now for quite some time as well. Spock happily agrees with Kirk's statement, which of course makes not one iota of a sense given where he comes from. The same way; would the Vulcans, and any other potential matriarchal system in another Federation member, allow their long-since revered females be barred from captaining starships?

The things is (and I've said this before), it seems to me, there is a scene missing. For there are really two ways you can read that episode and all the lines in it; one, all the mysoginy is real, and two Janice is nuts and lines (especially the above) really read, "If she wasn't nuts, she could have been as happy as anyone."

Now imagine, in 60s with one side of the viewers going, huh?, a huge chunk not reacting to it either way, and not being confused or offended by it, and a third part going, "Yeah, a-ok, that's telling 'em, Kirk." And then right after, as the last scene, the following plays:

Uhura: "The Jade Emperor is hailing us, sir."

Kirk: "On screen."

A hot woman in a gold mini-dress gets up from the captain's chair. "USS Jade Emperor to Enterprise. Well, well, well, if it isn't Jimmy Kirk. Still chasing the skirts, Jim?"

Kirk raises his eyebrows as the smirking woman puts her hands sassily in her sides: "Captain Victoria Ivanova. You still chasing men?"

Ivanova: "Always, although I don't need to chase them, Jim, they come to me. I hear we have to transport some looney to a bin. One of yours?"

Kirk looks embarrassed: "Actually, yes."

Ivanova laughs: "You always did leave women a quivering mess."

Kirk gets a look for revenge: "Didn't seem to happen with you?"

Ivanova's crew look at their captain. Unpreturbed she answers: "That's because I leave ALL my men a quivering mess." Now it's Kirk's crew turn to look at him. "Well, we got her. Helm, lay in a course to the asylum, maximum warp." Kirk raises his eyebrows. "Kirk, it was a pleasure, as always."

Kirk: "Same here. Maximum warp?"

Ivanova walks back to her seat: "You might look at your ship as a lady that needs to be treated gently with silken gloves, Kirk, I look upon mine as a stud bronco that kicks ass..." She pats her captain's chair affectionally, "...and knows when to give it to a woman hard and fast. Jade Emperor out."

Jade Emperor's bridge disappears from the screen. The ship zips off to warp, leaving a flustered Enterprise crew. McCoy folds his arms across his chest as he comes stand next to Kirk's chair, and says: "Makes you wonder whose more insane, Ivanova or Lester, doesn't it?"

Kirk looks up at him amused, while Spock raises an eyebrow.

 

[J.T.B.]

Remember, Enterprise had seven wounded and three dead from an encounter at Rigel VII as "The Cage" opened. Number One is a title given to an X-O, granted ... but it's quite possible that she was merely acting X-O, standing capably in for the dead or horribly wounded first officer struck down on Rigel. [The latter seems much more likely, in that Pike would have said, "including my own first officer and yeoman" when speaking about the deceased to Boyce early on if the X-O had been killed.]

It doesn't matter. When Pike disappears, Number One becomes the captain. It turns out to be temporary, but nobody knows it at the time. Until she and Colt are shanghaied, she is the commanding officer of that starship. If she were not qualified to take command for any reason, including sex, she would (a) never have been assigned as XO and (b) not taken command after Pike was captured.

In addition, the lady's called not only "Number One" during the episode, but "Lieutenant" at least once as well. If so, it's highly unlikely that a mere lieutenant would be permanent executive officer on a capital starship—especially when Enterprise is clearly meant to be one of Earth's best ships-of-the-line. Are we to accept that not a single commander or lieutenant commander in the entire fleet is available to hold that X-O slot?

Apparently. Perhaps, as in ENT, there is no lieutenant commander rank yet, and officers serve longer as lieutenants before making commander (as was the case in the Royal Navy before 1914). And, in turn, Starfleet is still small enough that most of the qualified commanders are tied up as CO's of smaller vessels. It was common in the USN before WW1 for a battleship to have a Capt for CO and a LCdr for XO.

But again, it doesn't matter, Number One was clearly in command of a starship.

We never saw a female Starfleet officer over the rank of lieutenant, or one wearing command gold (other than the eps where ops was wearing gold, too), during The Original Series.

Not quite, Dr. Mulhall in "Return to Tomorrow" is a LCdr.

It's also possible women commanded on tugs, freighters, corvettes, frigates, etc. ... just not starships.

Again, Lester might simply have been crazy ... but the alternative is not only reasonable, it's plausible.

Lester is pretty obviously not a credible witness, compared with what was shown in "The Cage." I don't see any other way to interpret it. Women can command starships, and we've seen one do it.

--Justin

 

[3D Master]

helped Spock with circuitry repairs (a communications expert would certainly know the guts of the board),

Uh, well, true... we never did see her HELP Spock with circuitry repairs, we did however at one time saw her repair a circuity board all by herself. I can't remember which episode it was though.

 

[JM1776]

It doesn't matter. When Pike disappears, Number One becomes the captain. It turns out to be temporary, but nobody knows it at the time. Until she and Colt are shanghaied, she is the commanding officer of that starship. If she were not qualified to take command for any reason, including sex, she would (a) never have been assigned as X-O and (b) not taken command after Pike was captured.

It most certainly does matter.

Whether or not Number One is qualified to take command in an emergency or under various other conditions was never at issue. Whether or not females were assigned permanent command of Federation starships in this era is. Why would I argue about whether or not Number One was qualified to assume the center seat when clearly she was assigned it by Pike?

Her stint as captain, however, had Pike died, would have lasted only until they reached a starbase—unless it's your contention that she would have been granted a field promotion and given the Enterprise, which I'll dismiss as absurd.

I have little doubt Number One, competent officer that she was, could well have received a frigate, destroyer, scout or other command later in her career—perhaps even between "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before." Certainly she handled herself well when the responsibility was thrust upon her.

But there's an enormous difference between commanding a starship (that era's equivalent of an aircraft carrier) temporarily as a result of attrition (which is what Number One would be doing if Pike died, and may have been doing in "The Cage" as the result of death or injury to the unnamed hypothetical X-O on Rigel) and doing so because you're assigned said vessel as your permanent billet.

Even the fact that she was assigned as permanent X-O is still assuming facts not in irrefutable evidence from the canon. The acting X-O may well be called "Number One," to distinguish him (or her) from the other officers.

[Though I hold that they are extrapolating and they themselves cite it only as "a likely reason," I note that Memory Alpha supports your take on it, as relates to British naval ranks, and asserts that Number One was Pike's permanent X-O.]

And, in turn, Starfleet is still small enough that most of the qualified commanders are tied up as CO's of smaller vessels.

Again, assuming facts not in evidence. We have no idea Starfleet's size in this period. We only know that vessels classified as starships (which was a reference to the Federation's largest and most powerful ships-of-the-line in this period) are twelve or thirteen. Again, if you consider cruisers, frigates, destroyers, tugs, freighters and other ships "starship command," then there's no dispute. I'm certain women can and did command those vessels, and I've never said or even vaguely implied otherwise—just not "starships" as the word was used then.

We have commodores commanding individual starships in at least two cases, bear in mind. Unlikely that they're lacking top officers to fill billets. More likely Starfleet is a bit top heavy, with captains shunted away from starship command by even higher-ranked officers, such as fleet captains and commodores.

But again, it doesn't matter, Number One was clearly in command of a starship.

Yes ... temporary command. Again, that was never at issue.

Not quite, Dr. Mulhall in "Return to Tomorrow" is a LCdr.

Again, I must stand corrected.

Which means either that, as you speculated, lieutenant commander was initiated as a rank sometime after "The Cage" (unlikely in that short time period) or that Number One was not permanent X-O, but instead acting X-O—a tremendously important distinction.

Lester is pretty obviously not a credible witness, compared with what was shown in "The Cage." I don't see any other way to interpret it. Women can command starships, and we've seen one do it.

Obviously there are other ways to interpret it. A viable one is being argued in this very thread.

And I think it's quite easy to see the exchange as Lester railing against the Old Boys' Club, and employing that as an excuse when clearly she would not have qualified for command of a toy boat anyway. To interpret it the other way is more of a stretch, from where I sit.

From Memory Alpha [italics mine for emphasis; bracketed statements mine]:

"Lester's remark to Kirk, that his world of Starfleet captains did not admit women to their ranks, implies the Starfleet culture of the 2260s was more sexist than its 22nd or 24th century counterparts. An interpretation [or, more properly, an attempt at revisionist history] offered by the Star Trek Chronology suggests Lester's comment referred to Kirk's inability to maintain a relationship, due to his responsibilities as a starship captain. Gene Roddenberry [the story creator], on the other hand, has gone on record as stating that the line was purely sexist."

Seems pretty definitive, if you ask me.

Of course women can command starships, and capably. I'm saying that it seems likely that they didn't receive them as their permanent billet in this period.

 

[pookha]

Yeah, we did. When the trio of starships bails Enterprise out upon their return to the Sol system directly after the Xindi attack on Earth, the commander who hails Archer is, you guessed it, a man. The admiral with whom he usually interacts is a man, and we see no female members of the admiralty even in passing, unless I'm mistaken. The only human female officer on Enterprise's crew is a mere ensign, also falling into the "nothing but junior officers" category. Do we even see any other female officers in the background on Enterprise? I recall Cutler, but she was a crewman, I believe. What about it, Enterprise fans? Are there female officers above the rank of lieutenant running around in background shots?.

trip's second was a female hess.
while they were an ensign one of the night duty officers was female .

and i hate to disagree with bonz but if trek had been concerned with just showing how the world was that bridge crew would not have existed.

so considering the evidence of number one and that janet lester appears to be a loon who killed her own people to luire kirk and said kirk wanted to kill her i could see that there were female captains about.

i mean we saw female attorney's, a female commissioner,


as for uhura not making repairs