Woman of the Week #6 - Camila Vallejo

[{ Emilia }]

I think it will forever stain her degree, because obviously the degree will be awarded under protest!

She's also a communist, a member of the Central Committee of Communist Youth of Chile. Based on long experience with other communist movements, if she were take power one day, hundreds of thousands of Chileans would become refugees, tens of thousands would be jailed as political prisoners, and countless others would just disappear. Her regime would probably fund and re-arm existing leftist revolutionaries in Bolivia, along with Shining Path and Tupac Ameru in Peru, destabilizing the region and inevitably causing the US to support and fund counter-revolutionaries. Regional and civil war would grind on and on, killing tens of thousands of people.

But maybe I'm just pessimistic.

Perhaps she should try modeling instead.

Maybe you should learn the difference between Stalinism and modern Marxism. Studying Eurocommunism would be a good start. It's about democratic socialism, a better distribution of wealth and a fair society. Maybe you should try to understand the specific issues present in South America. She is working for more democracy, more participation, more human rights.

Saying she'll turn into a dictator is just insulting. Assuming she'd want to turn the country into a dictatorship and turn into a mass murderer is just fucking bizarre and I can't believe we're even talking about this.

Since it's so damn ridiculous the obvious assumption is that you're just trying to get a reaction here. Go do that somewhere else.

 

[sidious618]

I don't think my (now former) college ever had a student protest. It was a lovely school but most of the student body had no idea what was going on outside of it. I wish the US had more student protests, or protests in general, really. We could use a person like Ms. Vallejo.

 

[{ Emilia }]

As I've said in the other thread, I was not really aware of the Chilean student movement. Now I've read a bit about it, and it was a fascinating story. I wish students' protests here were so organized and effective.

First time I heard about it was actually on the radio during some long drive. There was an long interview with a Chilean uni professor who supports the protests. Fascinating stuff.
This democratization process is exactly what the Chilean society needed. They're headed in the right direction.

What do these students want?

First and foremost an education reform that provides easier access to universities through more state funding for example. Right now the tuition fees exclude potential students from less affluent families. Access to higher education should not depend on the families' economic situation.

Obviously, I couldn't agree more with this. As written in another part of the interview, I really despise the idea that education is a "consumer good".

Same here. Education is a public good that should be primarily state-funded and readily available to everybody.

I think this is the point. Good looks help you to get noticed: no doubt about it. They can also be an hindrance: it's easy to see how the people is quick to dismiss and attack her because 1) she's a woman; 2) she's young; 3) she's attractive.

Yeah, I meant to write that earlier but I forgot. Beauty can actually be an issue for women who want to be taken seriously. I think what really matters in this case are the ideas, not the appearance.

I joined quite a few demonstrations against various "reforms" (actually, attempts to slash, de-fund, and privatize public education). I was never part of a formal party or student union, but I was quite active. In fact, we might have been in the same protest chanting non particularly edifying refrains about Silvio.

That's very possible.
That thought is so exciting. I might have "fought" alongside the wise iguana! I think that means I'm awesome by proxy now!

Pretty harmless obviously compared to the 1970s. This is a pic from Via Zamboni in the 1970s. That's the street most uni departments are located in:

Ugh. This picture is almost physically painful for me to look at. The entrance of the main building of my faculty, located on the upper floors of the Specola, is in the building on the right side of the picture, exactly where the armored car is. I stepped into it every day for two years, and a few times a week for another three. I still walk along this very street quite often. I consider it "home". So it resounds profoundly with me.

Yeah, same here. That pic always sends shivers down my spine. It's chilling.
And via zamboni definitely is "home" to me, too.

 

[gturner]

Excuse me - based on whose long experience with other communist movements? Yours? "If", "probably"... sounds an awful lot like wish fulfillment on your part.

Perhaps you should try just looking pretty instead of predicting the future.

I'm basing that on the history of communist revolutionary movements in the Carribean and Central and South America, not counting elsewhere. We have the examples of Grenada, Nicaragua, Cuba, Guatemala, Columbia, El Salvador, Peru, Bolivia, etc. The number of dead is well over 500,000.

Maybe some places can do communism lite, but the Western Hemisphere isn't necessarily one of them.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't think my (now former) college ever had a student protest. It was a lovely school but most of the student body had no idea what was going on outside of it. I wish the US had more student protests, or protests in general, really. We could use a person like Ms. Vallejo.

What would you like to see the US student population protest?

 

[sidious618]

I don't think my (now former) college ever had a student protest. It was a lovely school but most of the student body had no idea what was going on outside of it. I wish the US had more student protests, or protests in general, really. We could use a person like Ms. Vallejo.

What would you like to see the US student population protest?

The stranglehold big business has over the American government to name one. The lack of universal health care for another. I could go on and on!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't think my (now former) college ever had a student protest. It was a lovely school but most of the student body had no idea what was going on outside of it. I wish the US had more student protests, or protests in general, really. We could use a person like Ms. Vallejo.

What would you like to see the US student population protest?

The stranglehold big business has over the American government to name one. The lack of universal health care for another. I could go on and on!

Well you had the Occupy movement which touched on those things. I thought you might have meant protests specifically about education.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I don't think my (now former) college ever had a student protest. It was a lovely school but most of the student body had no idea what was going on outside of it. I wish the US had more student protests, or protests in general, really. We could use a person like Ms. Vallejo.

What would you like to see the US student population protest?

How about the unfairness of a system that is largely dependent on tuition fees? Many students who aren't well-off end up with huge debts when they finish uni. If they can finance it at all in the first place.

Like the iguana said education is a public good and funding it should be a public effort.

When some of Germany's states tried introducing tuition fees students protested (to varying success) and I can see why they did.

 

[sidious618]

Well you had the Occupy movement which touched on those things. I thought you might have meant protests specifically about education.

Well, good point there. They should certainly be protesting the outrages costs here in America. The American college system is a scam in many ways which is upsetting because I adore the idea of higher education.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well you had the Occupy movement which touched on those things. I thought you might have meant protests specifically about education.

Well, good point there. They should certainly be protesting the outrages costs here in America. The American college system is a scam in many ways which is upsetting because I adore the idea of higher education.

I've always found the US expectation of college as a life requirement odd. My US relatives have jobs they couldn't get without college degrees yet their degrees have nothing to do with the jobs. The jobs they have are things you would need to do a short course for here (if you didn't have the computer/office skills) or an apprenticeship. I've also heard that some US college degrees at least the first couple years are on par with doing your O levels or getting an excellent Enter score in Aus, ie what you do in a highly academic year 12. Which was free as opposed to paying out the nose for it in college.

 

[sidious618]

Colleges teach thinking skills, something lower schools tend not to do in the US, so I'm for all Americans going to college but private colleges are way too expensive right now unless you have a solid scholarship.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

She's also a communist, a member of the Central Committee of Communist Youth of Chile. Based on long experience with other communist movements, if she were take power one day, hundreds of thousands of Chileans would become refugees, tens of thousands would be jailed as political prisoners, and countless others would just disappear. Her regime would probably fund and re-arm existing leftist revolutionaries in Bolivia, along with Shining Path and Tupac Ameru in Peru, destabilizing the region and inevitably causing the US to support and fund counter-revolutionaries. Regional and civil war would grind on and on, killing tens of thousands of people.

Funny you should mention that, since there is precedent for those kinds of atrocities being committed by a radical government in Chile:

... characterized by systematic suppression of all political dissidence. Scholars later described this as politicide (political genocide) or "a systematic project to destroy an entire way of doing and understanding politics and governance."

... the number killed or "disappeared" soon reaching into the thousands. The National Stadium was being used to hold 5,000 prisoners, and as late as 1975, up to 3,811 prisoners were still being held in the Stadium. Between September and November 1973, as many as 40,000 political prisoners were detained in the Stadium. 1,850 of them were killed, another 1,300 are missing since then.

... the 1991 Commission to discover the truth about the human-rights violations, listed a number of torture and detention centers (such as Colonia Dignidad, the ship Esmeralda or Víctor Jara Stadium), and found that at least 3,200 people were killed or disappeared by the regime.

... A later report tells of some 28,000 arrests in which the majority of those detained were incarcerated and in a great many cases tortured. Some 30,000 Chileans were exiled and received abroad. Some 20,000–40,000 Chilean exiles were holders of passports stamped with the letter "L" (which stood for lista nacional), identifying them as persona non grata and had to seek permission before entering the country. According to a study in Latin American Perspectives, at least 200,000 Chileans (about 2% of Chile's 1973 population) were forced to go into exile. Additionally, hundreds of thousands left the country in the wake of the economic crises during the 1970s and 1980s.

... Guerrillas lost 1,500–2,000 fighters killed or disappeared. Among the killed and disappeared during the regime were at least 663 MIR guerrillas. 49 FPMR guerrillas were killed and hundreds tortured. Many guerrillas confessed under torture and several hundred other young men and women, sympathetic to the guerrillas, were detained and tortured and often killed. Nearly 700 civilians disappeared in the 1974-1977 period, after being detained by the Chilean military and police.

... Situations of "extreme trauma" affected about 200,000 persons; this figure includes individuals executed, tortured, forcibly exiled, or having their immediate relatives put under detention. While more radical groups were staunch advocates of a revolution, the [government] deliberately targeted nonviolent political opponents as well.

That government was the right wing, US-educated, Milton Friedman-influenced, free-market, anti-labor, anti-regulation, Christian military junta under the US-supported dictator Augusto Pinochet. Should we assume the worst about people who hold similar views (including many current US politicians, pundits, political movements and a certain presidential hopeful) absent of personal historical context and consideration of what they as individuals have actually proposed, like you have done with this young woman?

That was the government Ms. Vallejo's parents protested as part of the Chilean Communist Party, so you can see why they (and by extension their daughter) might have a different perspective on communism and why she would be opposed to using those kinds of tactics herself (and why she uses non-violent protest as a means to effect change).

You seem to be well-informed despite frequently using that information to make ignorant-sounding and inflammatory comments, so I'm forced to agree that the point of your baseless commentary here was to rile people up rather than being based on a lack of knowledge. The dismissive modelling comment at the end also supports this. You've been given two infractions for trolling a little more than a month ago and were told to knock it off, yet your rhetoric remains unchanged. If you want to keep posting here, I suggest you reevaluate your posting style and stick to facts and non-inflammatory commentary.

 

[SPCTRE]

Ugh, I misvoted. Should have gone with being too busy sucking up to big bussiness tbh

 

[gturner]

No, I wasn't trolling. I was pointing out that the person of the week was on the Central Committee of the Communist Youth Party of Chile, a branch of the Chilean Communist Party. The Chilean communist party also commits atrocities, attacking Mormon churches 15 times (with deaths), attacking multiple radio stations and news outlets (with deaths), along wtih assassination attempts, bombings, kidnappings, executions, and other mayhem. They use RPG's, US LAW rockets, dynamite, C-4, and M-16's, while calling for all the workers to become armed revolutionaries. They were the violent revolutionaries Pinochet was in large part trying to suppress with an iron fist. Fortunately he intercepted some of the huge weapons shipments they were set to receive.

Chile had lower deaths, by far, than most other Latin American countries where the communist revolutions took off, possibly because Pinochet succeeded in keeping them from forming an effective armed opposition. Had he not, it probably would've devolved into something extremely bloody, similar to the Spanish civil war, where both sides should've lost - badly. Other cournties in the region weren't as successful, so Cuba had at least 85,000 killed. Peru had 77,000 dead. Columbia had 31,000. Add in Nicaragua, Guatemala, and El Salvador and you exceed 500,000 dead.

That total is still not as bad as Suharto and Sukarno in Indonesia, but then they don't compare to Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, and ever leader of North Korea, not to mention lesser communist killers like Ceausescu, Tito, Kruschev, Brezhnev, Haile Mariam (little known because he only killed a million), Mugabe, Castro, Milosovics, or Ho Chi Minh and his successor, coming to a total of 85 to 100 million dead. Historians who study genocide and democide, even leftist ones, conclude that in the 20th century, communism was far more lethal than any other system of government.

Camila Vallejo is probably not one of these violent revolutionaries, but why would someone who joins the communist central committee (whose party had an active, violent revolutionary wing) get a pass because their former government sucked, as opposed to someone who joins some neo-Nazi movement because their former government sucked? At best she's a useful idiot, unaware of the track record of most communist states and the billions of people who suffered under them, and the tens of millions eliminated in mass killings.

Sure, she's currently calling for more democracy, but communists always call for more democracy until they finally win an election. Then the fair voting seems to stop. Thankfully, Chile is now a thriving democracy (ranking very high on all international rankings, including the human rights index) with a booming economy, and the communists only won 3 seats out of 120. Maybe that's why she's angry. The place is too centrist.

I'm sure she'll look great on T-shirts, but the region's ground truth reality of communist opposition has been lots of men with AK-47's, land mines, and RPG's conducting decades long guerilla wars against men with M-16's and helicopters, with villagers always caught in the crossfire. It is not pretty, and it almost certainly isn't part of the Marxist fairy tales she was raised on. She's fighting a revolutionary battle that ended when Pinochet left, one of the few who apparently didn't get the memo.

One of the common elements of student protests is that they're the ones who have the least real-world experience and historical perspective of all adults (she didn't get the memo). Another element is that despite their claims of worldliness, they're usually protesting something that affects college students, like admissions, tuition, grading, university policies, or military service (she's protesting tuition and admissions). Another element is that they tend to be far, far left (she could be the poster child for communist "useful idiot"), and a final element is that they put hot co-eds center stage (thus all the press coverage of her).

Camila is a trifecta of stereotypes. Can't women aspire to be more than that?

 

[iguana_tonante]

This democratization process is exactly what the Chilean society needed. They're headed in the right direction.

I agree. I did not know they still had such illiberal policies and laws even after the end of Pinochet's dictatorship.

That thought is so exciting. I might have "fought" alongside the wise iguana! I think that means I'm awesome by proxy now!

Your awesomeness is all your own, and you know it.

I've always found the US expectation of college as a life requirement odd. My US relatives have jobs they couldn't get without college degrees yet their degrees have nothing to do with the jobs. The jobs they have are things you would need to do a short course for here (if you didn't have the computer/office skills) or an apprenticeship.

I kinda agree. But I think that requiring college degrees for many jobs has nothing to do with skills or competence, and was introduced simply as a way for HR to deal with less applicants: a few college graduates instead of many more high school graduates. It backfired badly, and now they just have the same number of applicants, which in turn are now deep into debt for their college education.

I've also heard that some US college degrees at least the first couple years are on par with doing your O levels or getting an excellent Enter score in Aus, ie what you do in a highly academic year 12. Which was free as opposed to paying out the nose for it in college.

From what I've seen, American high schools give students a very shallow and self-centered education: history is little more than the list of US Presidents; geography is just a vague recollection of US states; they don't provide any actual skill, etc. (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Now I have my problems with the Italian education system, but at least they provide with a vast array of academic subject for students who are interested in continuing towards college (scientific, classical, artistic, and linguistic lyceum), and actual job skills for students who want to pursue a career immediately after high school (technical/professional institutes).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No, I wasn't trolling. I was pointing out that the person of the week was on the Central Committee of the Communist Youth Party of Chile, a branch of the Chilean Communist Party. The Chilean communist party also commits atrocities, attacking Mormon churches 15 times (with deaths), attacking multiple radio stations and news outlets (with deaths), along wtih assassination attempts, bombings, kidnappings, executions, and other mayhem. They use RPG's, US LAW rockets, dynamite, C-4, and M-16's, while calling for all the workers to become armed revolutionaries. They were the violent revolutionaries Pinochet was in large part trying to suppress with an iron fist. Fortunately he intercepted some of the huge weapons shipments they were set to receive.

gturner, you use the present tense when discussing the atrocities you say that the Communist Party of Chile has committed, but I question that, and you cite no sources.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Rodríguez_Patriotic_Front:

The Manuel Rodríguez Patriotic Front (Spanish: Frente Patriótico Manuel Rodríguez) (FPMR), also known as El Frente Patriótico, or simply El Frente, is a far-left urban guerrilla movement in Chile, named for a figure in Chile's independence movement, Manuel Rodríguez. The group was founded on September 14, 1983 as an armed resistance against the Pinochet regime by the Communist Party of Chile (PCCh). At its height, the FPMR was estimated to have between 1,000 and 1,500 members.[2] Most of the guerrillas were jailed and tortured or disappeared.[3] It has since become independent from the PCCh, and has joined the parliamentary system during the transition to democracy, participating in the Juntos Podemos Más left-wing coalition.

[...]

In the period 1988-1994, the FPMR conducted 15 attacks against LDS Chapels and temples.[9]

[...]

After the restoration of democratic rule in Chile in 1991, the FPMR reduced its actions. It split into two parts: one which returned to seeking change through the political system, and another which continued to advocate armed struggle. The latter faction continued to commit kidnappings and robberies, including the murder of the Independent Democrat Union senator Jaime Guzmán on April 1, 1991. Other main targets included LDS Chapels and temples, the kidnapping of Cristian Edwards, son of the owner of the nation's most prominent newspaper, El Mercurio, and US businesses in Chile such as McDonald's and Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant franchises.[13] After these operations, the FPMR ceased armed activities until 1996.

[...]

2. ^ Patterns of Global Terrorism: 1992
3. ^ Aquellos que todo lo dieron. El Rodriguista, 11 Años de Lucha y Dignidad, 1994

[...]

9. ^ Historical dictionary of terrorism, By Sean Anderson & Stephen Sloan, Page 416, Scarecrow Press, 2009

[...]

13. ^ Intelligence Resource Program

By this account, gturner's timeline is backwards, and other events he describes are all jumbled up.

• First of all, the FPMR was formed out of the PCCh to fight against Pinochet, not the other way around. gturner's account reads like the FPMR was one of the groups that Pinochet came to power to suppress.
• Secondly, immediately after Pinochet left power, the FPMR split.
• Third, attacks against LDS churches are hardly on-going operations. The last one happened almost 20 years ago, after the FPMR split.

I'm not going to fact-check gturner's entire post, but at least on this one point alone, gturner's account appears highly distorted.

---

On the subject of Camila Vallejo, I appreciate the opportunity provided by this thread to become better educated. South America is one subject that I know little about.

 

[{ Emilia }]

@ gturner: Wow, a Pinochet apologist. Just when I thought I'd seen everything. Takes a special kind of crazy to insult Camila Vallejo like this. Many people in Chile suffered under Pinochet's rule and this woman is fighting for more democracy and human rights organizing peaceful protests.
She specifically says she wants a democratic way to social reforms.

Could your statements possibly be even more awful? I'm sure you can do even better. I bet next you're going to tell us how Pinochet saved Chile from the evil dictatorship of Allende?

Oh wait... shit.
It would be hilarious if it weren't showing such a profound disregard for Pinochet's victims.

Also: You might want to put your fake facts back to where you pulled them from (Sounds painful? It should.). You're citing actions of various groups from various periods in time to prove that a young woman who promotes human rights and democracy in present-day Chile is secretly a potential mass murderer. It's just so bizarre.

You sound like the crazy right-wing Springer-media sounded when it painted Rudi Dutschke as the devil. It resulted in him being shot. Which is a damn scary thought in this context.

This democratization process is exactly what the Chilean society needed. They're headed in the right direction.

I agree. I did not know they still had such illiberal policies and laws even after the end of Pinochet's dictatorship.

It's still a very paternalistic, pro-business attitude. It takes a while for countries to fully embrace democracy. Adenauer's rule was pretty paternalistic, too. But after a while the population always seems to want more democracy and more participation. If you think about it the student protests in Chile aren't that much different in nature from those in Germany, France and Italy in the 1960s and 1970s. People wanted social change or in the words of Willy Brandt: "Let's dare more democracy."

Now I have my problems with the Italian education system, but at least they provide with a vast array of academic subject for students who are interested in continuing towards college (scientific, classical, artistic, and linguistic lyceum), and actual job skills for students who want to pursue a career immediately after high school (technical/professional institutes).

I do like much of the Italian system in theory but it's so severely under-funded. Especially the financial situation of promising young academics is precarious in many cases.

I'm really enjoying the German system.

 

[iguana_tonante]

If you think about it the student protests in Chile aren't that much different in nature from those in Germany, France and Italy in the 1960s and 1970s.

Very good point.

I do like much of the Italian system in theory but it's so severely under-funded. Especially the financial situation of promising young academics is precarious in many cases.

Tell me about it.

I'm really enjoying the German system.

I was tempted to jump after I finished my PhD. But I wanted my life to go in a different direction than a rootless travelling researcher, so I decided to put up with the system at home, with its ups and downs.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

@ gturner: Wow, a Pinochet apologist. Just when I thought I'd seen everything. Takes a special kind of crazy to insult Camila Vallejo like this. Many people in Chile suffered under Pinochet's rule and this woman is fighting for more democracy and human rights organizing peaceful protests.
She specifically says she wants a democratic way to social reforms.

It's a by-product of the Cold War. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that to most Americans, even today, communism in whatever form is just plain bad, and therefore anything that is anticommunist is—without discrimination—good. Once they see the hammer and sickle, it's all over.

I'm willing to keep an open mind, to base my opinion on facts, without dismissing out of hand. Certainly, the US has been too ideologically rigid and ended up on the wrong side in many regional conflicts, such as in Southeast Asia. As I said already, this thread is an opportunity for me to learn about the history of South America.

 

[Count Zero]

People wanted social change or in the words of Willy Brandt: "Let's dare more democracy."

And then, that same government crafted the law against radicals in public service which resulted in many people with left-wing ideology barred from working in the job they had prepared for (e.g. teaching). It was a great speech but that's about it.
Being a member of the Communist Party, Camila Vallejo would have been out of luck if she had chosen a career in that sector.

(Sorry for the thread derailment. I really love that sentence by Brandt (also the weird way he says it) but I thought it was somewhat funny for this to show up in a thread about a Chilean Communist. The fact that his government didn't really deliver on that count despite the awesome speech just bugs me, so I couldn't stop myself.)