WNMHGB Question

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Vger23, Jun 2, 2021.

  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then you're aware that Arthur C. Clarke intended all four of them to be in different continuities. (He actually says this in the foreword to one of them.) For instance, 3001 pushes forward the events of 2001 by several decades, and the ending of 2010 is inconsistent with the timelines of the last two novels.

    So blaming the 2010 film for "retconning" something from 2001 would not appear to make a ton of sense, because the novels went farther than that anyway.
     
  2. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    Please don't.
     
  3. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    ?
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

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    It’s a fanfilm. A heavy handed retconny fanfilm. So let’s not consider it re the actual show.
     
  5. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    Agree to disagree, I suppose. What does it retcon?
     
  6. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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  7. hofner

    hofner Commodore Commodore

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    "Me Tarzan you Jane"

    Robert
     
  8. hofner

    hofner Commodore Commodore

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    I'm late replying to this but...

    Nah, Sam Kirk went the same way as Adam Cartwright, Mike Douglas and Chuck Cunningham.

    The old 'Oldest brother seases to exist syndrome.'

    Robert
     
  9. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not the same. First, Adam Cartwright was referred to on the number of episodes after he left the Bonanza. He was not totally forgotten. Jim Kirk's brother was mentioned before we saw him and was killed off as part of the plot of an episode. He wasn't introduced as a character and then dropped without explanation and then forgotten. That would be Janice Rand. He was a part of Kirk's backstory.

    I still maintain that they knew Kirk had a brother. Harve Bennett knew: he watched every episode before he produced the second movie. I'm sure William Shatner would've remembered aspects of his own character. He might not of remembered the guy's name, but I can absolutely imagine he remembered Kirk had a brother at some point. Even David Loughery might've known it. So even if they didn't mention Sam by name, by having Kirk actually elevate Spock on the same level as his late brother actually makes the scene more important and drives home how highly Kirk regards him.

    I just don't see why it's so hard to accept that the people involved in the making of a Star Trek movie might actually know something about Star Trek. :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
  10. hofner

    hofner Commodore Commodore

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    I was just kidding although...

    There were explanations for the departure of Adam in Bonanza and mike in My Three Sons, but by the time I started watching those shows later in the sixties, I had no idea they had been on those shows or for that matter, that Ernie had been adopted, and didn't know for years. If Adam or Mike were mentioned, I'm pretty sure I didn't know who they were talking about.

    So for me back then, Bonanza was a show about Ben Cartwright and his two sons and My Three Sons was about Robbie, Chip and Ernie.

    Robert
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
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  11. GNDN18

    GNDN18 270 Rear Admiral

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    Agreed on all points. The poignancy of the scene is found in both McCoy and Spock believing Kirk is referring to Sam, then each realizing he was speaking metaphorically about Spock. A rare instance of showing-not-telling on the illustrated radio show that was Star Trek.
     
  12. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One of things I used to love about the writing on The Orville (before it went to some pay service) was that its comedy took the form of naturalism. Star Trek V could have simply done this and it would have been magnificent:

    KIRK: I had a brother once. I'm glad I got him back.
    McCOY: I thought he meant Sam! Remem--
    KIRK (cutting in): He got it, Bones.
     
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  13. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I could easily see Shatner forgetting that Kirk had a brother. He was made up as Sam for a shot that lasted all of a half second onscreen, he had no dialogue as Sam, and the character wasn't mentioned again after he was killed off. It was a job Shatner did 21 years before they were shooting STV in 1988, he'd done dozens of jobs since, and by his own admission, Shatner never watched TOS that much. There's just not a lot there about the job or that particular plot to stick in his memory. If it'd been a notable guest star who played Kirk's brother, he might've remembered.

    Really, it's good to remember that as high quality or as fun of a job TOS might've been for the actors, it was still just a job for them. The actors haven't been rewatching the same ST episodes over and over again for decades the way we fans have been, because they were working on their next jobs.

    Hell, I don't even remember the names of some of the coworkers I had 21 years ago, let alone some minute detail of one project I did back then.
     
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  14. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was thinking that he was ego driven enough to remember his own character deets. Even if not, Harve would have. If Loughery was familiar with the series, he would too.

    Star Trek was the most popular TV series in American history. They were cresting in this popularity. They were deep into a film series. If the screenplay can quote two episodes a season and a half apart from each other, they can know Kirk had a brother.
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    That's assuming that was the type of detail he was looking for, cared about and would remember. His Khan and Khan cronies carried little over from their TV incarnations. I think he skimmed the episodes mostly.
     
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  16. Extrocomp

    Extrocomp Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's been a long time since I heard news about Vic Mignogna, so maybe I'm misremembering the details, but I've had the impression that the sexual harassment allegations were highly dubious. He just seemed like an affectionate guy who liked giving his fans and coworkers hugs and sometimes kissing them on the cheek. Some of them appreciated it and some of them didn't, but it hardly counts as being a sexual predator. I remember an anime news site ran a story about him with a photo of him kissing a fan as an example of his so-called sexual harassment. That girl later came forward to say that she asked him to kiss her and was upset that her photo was being used without her permission by the news site to spread lies about Vic Mignogna.

    I remember giving a female coworker a hug many years ago. It was 21 December 2012, so I did it as a bit of an end-of-the-world joke. She didn't mind and in fact hugged me back the next Monday after the world didn't end. In today's age of ultra-sensitivity, I would never risk doing something like that again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
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  17. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    That's overselling it a bit.
     
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  18. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    He didn't have to memorize them and he couldn't miss the fact that Kirk had a brother in Operation Annihilate, unless he was reading Variety for the run of the episode.

    All I'm saying (and I promise I'm not gonna keep droning on about this)) is that they remembered certain details when they had to, so why not allow they could have remembered "Kirk had a brother who died in some episode?"
     
  19. ssosmcin

    ssosmcin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Not really. Name another that's impacted pop culture and society in the same way and still gets quoted and mentioned after 5 decades.
     
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  20. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Imagine if The Dick Van Dyke show had spawned major motion pictures with the original cast. That would have been awesome, and so much better than Van Dyke's actual film career, but it didn't happen. :sigh:
     
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