^ It amuses me that a puppet like Rygel was far more interesting and compelling than the likes of Chakotay or Mayweather 
Wish List for Star Trek: 2017
- Thread starter David.Blue
- Start date
Deks, I just wanted to say I appreciate your comments on the potential future society presented in Star Trek. I think what you have said almost totally aligns with my thoughts on the Federation and with how our actual society could develop (if we solve war, poverty, etc.). I see the whole post-scarcity thing being as much a key element of Star Trek as warp drive or Star Fleet. Picard's statement about bettering ourselves and humanity is a foundational aspect of Star Trek.
I also agree with you that inconsistent depiction of this economy or in general any depiction of money in the Federation can be boiled down to the following: 1) early on in Star Trek (largely in TOS), the concept wasn't as established so writers took short cuts referring to money because that is what they knew from writing and living in the 1960s, 2) later references to money were either jokes/idioms (Scotty earning his week's pay or buying a boat) or writers not understanding that the Federation didn't really need to not use money, 3) interactions between Federation (where no money is needed internally) and external entities (Encounter at Farpoint). Trading with Ferengi or Dominion, you need money, in the form of non-replicatable gold-pressed latinum or the equivalent in "certified" Federation credits. [my personal recon: Jake probably could have requested some money from the Federation to buy his dad's baseball card present from the non-Federation seller, but the notification probably would have passed through Sisko's desk ruining the surprise.]
Overall, in terms of Federation economy I think about Joseph Sisko and his restaurant and Bashir’s father. Both men do the “job” they want to do. Sisko is good at his and likes it, so he keeps running his restaurant. Bashir’s father is not very skilled (at least at the things he has tried so far), so he keeps moving from one “job” to another. That is what the Federation allows for all its citizens. And that is what keeps people from hoarding something like good wine-making land. If you aren’t good at it or don’t like it, you move on to something else – or work at it until you are better at it. If humans can get past war and greed, then they can surely move past the idea of holding on to something (whether it’s irreplaceable and limited land or something unlimited like a stubborn belief) just because it is “theirs” if they are not bettering themselves and humanity with it.
Thinking about the issue of beachfront property (I haven't read that beaches thread), makes me think maybe that is the reason so many people go join startup colonies. They want that one, ideal, parcel of land but can't find just the right one on Earth, so they look for it on one of the 1000's of planets out there (actually they are probably just acting out a rebellious urge against the "unexciting" Federation culture where, except for the occasional Breen attack or marauding space-probe, life on a Federation world is very safe). But again, the Federation allows you to go out and try that.
I also agree with you that inconsistent depiction of this economy or in general any depiction of money in the Federation can be boiled down to the following: 1) early on in Star Trek (largely in TOS), the concept wasn't as established so writers took short cuts referring to money because that is what they knew from writing and living in the 1960s, 2) later references to money were either jokes/idioms (Scotty earning his week's pay or buying a boat) or writers not understanding that the Federation didn't really need to not use money, 3) interactions between Federation (where no money is needed internally) and external entities (Encounter at Farpoint). Trading with Ferengi or Dominion, you need money, in the form of non-replicatable gold-pressed latinum or the equivalent in "certified" Federation credits. [my personal recon: Jake probably could have requested some money from the Federation to buy his dad's baseball card present from the non-Federation seller, but the notification probably would have passed through Sisko's desk ruining the surprise.]
Overall, in terms of Federation economy I think about Joseph Sisko and his restaurant and Bashir’s father. Both men do the “job” they want to do. Sisko is good at his and likes it, so he keeps running his restaurant. Bashir’s father is not very skilled (at least at the things he has tried so far), so he keeps moving from one “job” to another. That is what the Federation allows for all its citizens. And that is what keeps people from hoarding something like good wine-making land. If you aren’t good at it or don’t like it, you move on to something else – or work at it until you are better at it. If humans can get past war and greed, then they can surely move past the idea of holding on to something (whether it’s irreplaceable and limited land or something unlimited like a stubborn belief) just because it is “theirs” if they are not bettering themselves and humanity with it.
Thinking about the issue of beachfront property (I haven't read that beaches thread), makes me think maybe that is the reason so many people go join startup colonies. They want that one, ideal, parcel of land but can't find just the right one on Earth, so they look for it on one of the 1000's of planets out there (actually they are probably just acting out a rebellious urge against the "unexciting" Federation culture where, except for the occasional Breen attack or marauding space-probe, life on a Federation world is very safe). But again, the Federation allows you to go out and try that.
That borders on the scary, that in order to travel to a colony, this would have to be something that the Federation "allows."
The thing with beachfront property isn't so much about a house on the beach, but rather how do you determine who gets something that's in limited supply, the example I commonly use is the penthouse on top of a residential tower in the middle of a city. Today, who gets it is determined with money, how would it be done without money?
Thing is the writers were the one who on a weekly basis were creating the Federation and the Trek future in general, episode by episode. So what we see (hear) on screen was the Trek universe, so the multiple references to "yes money" are a part of that universe. At the same time there have been a small handful of "no money" reference that are somehow a part of the overall mix too.
The Klingons have replicator technology, they also have a "yes money" economy, the episode The House of Quark reveals that their economy is very much like a western country today. The Cardassian's equipped DS9 with replicators, and they too have money.
Replicators (simply by existing) don't get rid of money.
My take is Humans/Earth/Federation do have money, for the most part the economy is currency-less. You obtain food from a repli-mat, the price is deducted from your financial account. Food from Sisko's restaurant, same deal, you receive the food at your table and payment is automatically made.
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Perhaps "allows" was a bad choice of words. "Facilitates" or "enables" or "does not object to" might have been better. I don't agree with other posters that the Federation would do something as controlling as pulling someone's restaurant license because their food isn't good enough. Sure, for health concerns, but not just for quality or popularity. The Federation is there to facilitation the growth and development of their population, not control it or force it to take specific actions or give up some things for the "greater good". If people give things up, it is their own will for what will make them better people. What I was trying to say is that the structure of the Federation makes it possible (or even encourages) people to strike out on their own and create their own version of society on a new colony/world. Some of those succeed and join/stay in the Federation, some fail, and some become independent.
As for the economy in general, I don't think I will ever convince those that don't believe, but I believe that a money-less economy is possible under certain circumstances. I think the Federation has reached those circumstances, and by explicit decree of the text (starting with at least Star Trek IV) Gene Roddenberry's revised humanity/Federation of the late 23rd/24th century doesn't use money. Sure, Federation economics tracks "costs" of things using credits, etc. for purposes of demographics tracking, efficiency improvements, producing and transporting needed raw materials and power, etc., but on a day-to-day no one earns money, no one spends money.
Now as to the point that maybe everyone has a secret bank account that is implicitly drawn from or added to with every economic transaction that a person makes, it could be possible, but I don't think I agree. If you are saying there is a limit, a point where someone's balance can reach zero until they earn more, I don't think that is reflective of how the Federation operates (internally) in the 24th century. Yeah, other races still seem to be based on a more normal, capitalist version of economics even with replicators, etc., but I think that is reflective of their civilizations not achieving the level of social development seen in the Federation that enables a near-utopic society. As a good example of how the Federation is ultra-benevolent and doesn't need for material wealth, look to Quark's bar. In "Bar Association" (season 4 of DS9), we learn that the Federation hasn't been charging Quark for rent, repairs, or power for 4 years. And this is even with a non-citizen, because he lives on their controlled space station; we have to assume that they do that for all the shops on DS9 too. Perhaps the relevant allegorical point is that the Cardassians and Klingon's pour so much of their material production into conquering, fighting, and building military and are generally more inefficient, that they can't achieve the 'zen' of the Federation.
As for the Ferengi, you could look at the actions of Grand Negus Zek as moving the Ferengi toward the Federation ideal by empowering their population (women and the underclasses), enacting social services, and dampening the pursuit of greed. Who knows, maybe soon under Rom they will achieve a near-utopia like the Federation. (Though I still root for Quark when he makes his bar the last/first bastion of unbridled Ferengi-ism.)
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I'm going to toss in my couple of pennies about a few issues...
The impression I got was that the Federation really didn't have money, but had a fundamentally different system that was post-capitalistic. But just as we retain aspects of our feudal past, so too the UFP's mainstream culture includes things that echo what we today call the "free market." More, other than simply using a different system, people think in a different way than we do about resources, trade, salaries, etc. How this system would work, I simply don't know. Post scarcity however does not mean infinite resources, but that they found a way to eliminate poverty. Literally Earth, as Captain Sisko put it, was a "paradise." And the system itself would be self-sustaining, comfortable, stable. Again, trying to figure out how that would work is a little bit like asking a Monk in 10th century Ireland to describe the digital age. Hell, we didn't even see that coming a decade before the fact!
As a devout Christian I wish some people would stop assuming I must be an Fundamentalist. Or that Fundamentalist beliefs are a prerequisite to Theism in any way, manner, shape or form. I know from bitter experience some Atheists simply cannot wrap their heads around this idea, but honestly religion and theology also grows more (or less) sophisticated with time and events. Biblical literalism, for example, is specifically rejected by most mainstream "Christian Churches. Really. One of the leaders (a Hierarch) of my own church (Orthodox) is a quantum physicist! In fact many theists the world over revere science as a way of learning more about God by studying the Creation. Just as the vast majority of Muslims are not extremist at all, so the vast majority of Christians simply do not resemble Fundamentalists at all. And I would frankly say I know far more about my religious beliefs than anyone here so I hope (for once) no one will proceed to tell me what I "must" think (reminder--Biblical Literalism is rejected by most Churches, including my own)
Different uniforms, yes please!!!!!! Those catsuits look so impractical in almost countless ways, as well as being quite ugly for anyone with a relatively normal body. My body type is roughly pear-shaped, for example. Heaven help anyone who tends to be round in shape in those suits! And how do they carry anything without pockets? The Kirk Era motion pictures had the best uniforms imho.
I quite like the idea of an alien Captain, and would go so far as to say it needn't be an alien species we know. Probably should be, but it need not be. It might be fascinating (heh) to have the 'other' in command making decisions some of the crew have trouble understanding them. I can think of several stories built around that dynamic, including Run Silent, Run Deep and the current show The 100 as well as Harry Potter for that matter.
Just a thought--we don't know what happened to the Doomsday Machine in the Abramsverse. We know in the Prime Universe it was stopped prior to reaching the Federation (or a major population center known to Starfleet). But what if it were stopped before then? Who knows what civilization might then exist to change the playing field as it were?
The impression I got was that the Federation really didn't have money, but had a fundamentally different system that was post-capitalistic. But just as we retain aspects of our feudal past, so too the UFP's mainstream culture includes things that echo what we today call the "free market." More, other than simply using a different system, people think in a different way than we do about resources, trade, salaries, etc. How this system would work, I simply don't know. Post scarcity however does not mean infinite resources, but that they found a way to eliminate poverty. Literally Earth, as Captain Sisko put it, was a "paradise." And the system itself would be self-sustaining, comfortable, stable. Again, trying to figure out how that would work is a little bit like asking a Monk in 10th century Ireland to describe the digital age. Hell, we didn't even see that coming a decade before the fact!
As a devout Christian I wish some people would stop assuming I must be an Fundamentalist. Or that Fundamentalist beliefs are a prerequisite to Theism in any way, manner, shape or form. I know from bitter experience some Atheists simply cannot wrap their heads around this idea, but honestly religion and theology also grows more (or less) sophisticated with time and events. Biblical literalism, for example, is specifically rejected by most mainstream "Christian Churches. Really. One of the leaders (a Hierarch) of my own church (Orthodox) is a quantum physicist! In fact many theists the world over revere science as a way of learning more about God by studying the Creation. Just as the vast majority of Muslims are not extremist at all, so the vast majority of Christians simply do not resemble Fundamentalists at all. And I would frankly say I know far more about my religious beliefs than anyone here so I hope (for once) no one will proceed to tell me what I "must" think (reminder--Biblical Literalism is rejected by most Churches, including my own)
Different uniforms, yes please!!!!!! Those catsuits look so impractical in almost countless ways, as well as being quite ugly for anyone with a relatively normal body. My body type is roughly pear-shaped, for example. Heaven help anyone who tends to be round in shape in those suits! And how do they carry anything without pockets? The Kirk Era motion pictures had the best uniforms imho.
I quite like the idea of an alien Captain, and would go so far as to say it needn't be an alien species we know. Probably should be, but it need not be. It might be fascinating (heh) to have the 'other' in command making decisions some of the crew have trouble understanding them. I can think of several stories built around that dynamic, including Run Silent, Run Deep and the current show The 100 as well as Harry Potter for that matter.
Just a thought--we don't know what happened to the Doomsday Machine in the Abramsverse. We know in the Prime Universe it was stopped prior to reaching the Federation (or a major population center known to Starfleet). But what if it were stopped before then? Who knows what civilization might then exist to change the playing field as it were?
I don't recall the TOS movie uniforms having pockets.
I see no issue with the Federation having/using money. Money is not a bad thing. It's a piece of technology that makes it easier for humans to work together.
This is called "Unit of Account" which is a one of the functions of money.
Main points about 'no money' is that basic things are free and people no longer care about wealth. These are important. Whether Federation uses some sort of credit system to track costs of starships and space stations I don't care. But people in the Federation should do things because they like doing those things, not because they need to get paid to buy things.
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Pretty sure Ben Childress and his crew were on Rigel XII mining lithium for the payday. Just sayin'. That place is almost as bad as Galorndon Core.
Things I want to see:
1. This is an easy one; Star Trek as an exploration of our society and of issues that we face. Watching reruns of TNG over the past months and realized how much I've missed this.
2. Serialization without being a slave to it.
3. Truly showing the vastness of space and the galaxy. The same sense you get from playing EVE or Elite: Dangerous.
4. Not utopia, but clearly a better society than we live in now. I don't want Warhammer 40k GrimDark, I want something for kids and adults to look at and see a better future for us.
5. Maturity in content, but still something a 9 or 10 year old can watch (I was 9 when TNG started).
6. Starfleet to be portrayed as a military organization. Yes I know they're explorers first, but it's an armed, uniformed organization that falls under it's own set of laws.
7. Shorter seasons, 13-16 episodes maintain the quality over time.
8. Super high budget.
Etc...
1. This is an easy one; Star Trek as an exploration of our society and of issues that we face. Watching reruns of TNG over the past months and realized how much I've missed this.
2. Serialization without being a slave to it.
3. Truly showing the vastness of space and the galaxy. The same sense you get from playing EVE or Elite: Dangerous.
4. Not utopia, but clearly a better society than we live in now. I don't want Warhammer 40k GrimDark, I want something for kids and adults to look at and see a better future for us.
5. Maturity in content, but still something a 9 or 10 year old can watch (I was 9 when TNG started).
6. Starfleet to be portrayed as a military organization. Yes I know they're explorers first, but it's an armed, uniformed organization that falls under it's own set of laws.
7. Shorter seasons, 13-16 episodes maintain the quality over time.
8. Super high budget.
Etc...
I hope there is some world building for once. DS9 did a little of this, I loved it.
Hopefully he will be attack-helicopter-o-sexual so I will FIIIIIINALLY get represented.
Hopefully he will be attack-helicopter-o-sexual so I will FIIIIIINALLY get represented.
Well other than just to enjoy the show 
Here's my wish-list.
1. World-building - I agree with ancient in that one as I loved it. It was arguably my favourite thing about DS9 outside of the characters
2. Good enough budget - though I guess that's a given.
3. I'd actually like to see a Romulan and a Cardassian as crew members along with a Bajoran and a Klingon.
I think that's it for now. The main thing really is that I just want to enjoy the show
Here's my wish-list.
1. World-building - I agree with ancient in that one as I loved it. It was arguably my favourite thing about DS9 outside of the characters
2. Good enough budget - though I guess that's a given.
3. I'd actually like to see a Romulan and a Cardassian as crew members along with a Bajoran and a Klingon.
I think that's it for now. The main thing really is that I just want to enjoy the show
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