Wiped! Doctor who's missing episodes story

[starsuperion]

I am telling you guys, maybe the person who lent the American public network their copies of the Doctor who shows was from the UK, and lived in canada, and bought the Dalek Master plan from the BBC or some affiliate..either way, I am telling ou I think that the Louisiana PBS, or the WGN PBS stations or some station in Louisiana, or chicago has a copy of some of the lost episodes..

I remember distinctly seeing the emperor dalek and troughton in the throne room with daleks running around.. I am not lying, and I am not crazy!! ( I want to say something happened with the tubes from the wall,and there was a lot of smoke coming from around the supreme dalek or the tubes.....I remember that much) I wish there was someone who could check those spots and give us a roster of what they own.. there was an announcement of special thanks one year, 1985, or 1986, where the PBS or Public station (i forgot it's denotation) had special thanks to a canadian company for furnishing some of the episodes it received.. and that to pledge money so that we could enjoy more of these programs..as the station would purchase them..

I am just positive, some one knows..

cause I can tell you, that (southern) Public network or the Chicago based company, has the largest single classic who collection this side of the pond!

it did not have the lions gate promo at the end of the episodes, like those of tom baker..

One of my first hartnell episodes was seen on this channel in 1985-86 and was the chase..(not a lost episode)

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^WGN has nothing to do with PBS, it has always been an independent "superstation" .

It also (unfortunately) has become a CW affiliate, and WB before that. On the plus side, they did air DS9.

And I'm sure the Chicago PBS station never aired Pertwee before the mid 80's. They kept repeating the ever growing number of Baker episodes over & over for years before I ever saw Pertwee.

 

[starsuperion]

^WGN has nothing to do with PBS, it has always been an independent "superstation" .

It also (unfortunately) has become a CW affiliate, and WB before that. On the plus side, they did air DS9.

And I'm sure the Chicago PBS station never aired Pertwee before the mid 80's. They kept repeating the ever growing number of Baker episodes over & over for years before I ever saw Pertwee.

I don't know why I was stuck on the WGN for some reason, maybe it was an affiliate organization that had similar letters that was involved with the PBS station that showed doctor who.. But I am certain as anything that the PBS station in the Louisiana Area back in the 80's when I used to live there, had a massive Doctor who library, and it was there that I saw many black and white episodes.. like the chase and a vague recollection of that daleks episode.. I may be wrong, but I still believe that a copy of the daleks masterplan survived here and is in the US..cause like I said, I remember the emperor (I think it was called the supreme dalek, but I may be wrong), troughton yelling and running away, daleks moving toward their leader, and the tubes running to him spewing out a mist of smoke.. and an alarm going off..



I know they have it somewhere! I would totally take a lie detector test to prove that I have seen this episode!! if for no other reason then to get a search party together and head down to Louisiana..

But with my luck, Katrina would have washed it away..

 

[diankra]

I may be wrong, but I still believe that a copy of the daleks masterplan survived here and is in the US..cause like I said, I remember the emperor (I think it was called the supreme dalek, but I may be wrong), troughton yelling and running away, daleks moving toward their leader, and the tubes running to him spewing out a mist of smoke.. and an alarm going off..

Ok, that sounds like it's Evil of the Daleks (Troughton and static, tall Emperor linked into the city by tubes), not Masterplan (Hartnell, black Dalek supreme).
That does open up a potential explanation, as one of the effects technicians shot a home movie of the final battle scenes in Evil, which might just possibly be what you've seen. Flaw in that argument is that 'The Last Dalek' material doesn't feature Troughton, only Dalek-on-Dalek war. But still...

 

[starsuperion]

I may be wrong, but I still believe that a copy of the daleks masterplan survived here and is in the US..cause like I said, I remember the emperor (I think it was called the supreme dalek, but I may be wrong), troughton yelling and running away, daleks moving toward their leader, and the tubes running to him spewing out a mist of smoke.. and an alarm going off..

Ok, that sounds like it's Evil of the Daleks (Troughton and static, tall Emperor linked into the city by tubes), not Masterplan (Hartnell, black Dalek supreme).
That does open up a potential explanation, as one of the effects technicians shot a home movie of the final battle scenes in Evil, which might just possibly be what you've seen. Flaw in that argument is that 'The Last Dalek' material doesn't feature Troughton, only Dalek-on-Dalek war. But still...

thanks for the clarification on which episode that was...but what perplexes me was that scene I remember the most was shown on TV...and I should have been clearer, troughton was there before the smoke started there were sirens, and once gone the daleks headed for the emperor and the smoke was going off and the lights and the sirens..the floor was a mirror like shinny..that you can see in old pics, but why I remember seeing that episode is clear.. it was because I saw the Emperor or the supreme dalek in action.. and it was strikingly cool to me as a kid of that time..

I think the daleks were in disarray for some reason?? I don't know, mind you I was ten to thirteen years old at the time I saw it..But it was on TV.. and not some clip on the net.. cause the net wasn't around back then.. well not like it is today..

what i am certain of is that it was on tv, and in Louisiana, and shown on the public broadcast station..and there was the emperor dalek hooked up to the city, and troughton was in it...it was a full episode, and I do not remember much, but I do remember seeing it..in 1985 to 1989..

I know that doesn't make sense, but there has to be some other fans who live in the south who are from that area at that time who know what I am talking about. I had a lot of friends who I did not know were whovian's until I was about to move from town.. and they were all into it..

there is an underground who fandom in the south..they do not speak of it for fear of lynching from Trekkers..

 

[diankra]

I think the daleks were in disarray for some reason?? I don't know, mind you I was ten to thirteen years old at the time..

That sounds exactly like Evil of the Daleks 7, which ends with a civil war between normal Daleks and those who've developed human consciences.
If you saw that in the late 1980s, you have seen one of the most missed episodes of the series.

 

[starsuperion]

I think the daleks were in disarray for some reason?? I don't know, mind you I was ten to thirteen years old at the time..

That sounds exactly like Evil of the Daleks 7, which ends with a civil war between normal Daleks and those who've developed human consciences.
If you saw that in the late 1980s, you have seen one of the most missed episodes of the series.

yea the doctor drew a symbol on one of them and was nice to it.. it was pretty weird, i remember thinking, what are you doing it's a dalek!!

 

[Orcus]

Hmmm... I find it hard to imagine that you'd have seen this on any TV station in the late eighties - let alone a US station.

The episodes in question had been "disposed" of at least ten years earlier and, in any case, had never been sold to either the US or Canada. (As I understand it, Canada only ever received the first six or so Hartnell serials from 1963/64.)

For any TV station to broadcast material it acquired by means other than legal channels would be a breach of copyright and subject to hefty fines - and few stations would risk that. Is it possible that you saw cine-clips on video tape? Or possibly a case of mis-remembering the date of viewing?

 

[starsuperion]

Hmmm... I find it hard to imagine that you'd have seen this on any TV station in the late eighties - let alone a US station.

The episodes in question had been "disposed" of at least ten years earlier and, in any case, had never been sold to either the US or Canada. (As I understand it, Canada only ever received the first six or so Hartnell serials from 1963/64.)

For any TV station to broadcast material it acquired by means other than legal channels would be a breach of copyright and subject to hefty fines - and few stations would risk that. Is it possible that you saw cine-clips on video tape? Or possibly a case of mis-remembering the date of viewing?

nope, it was definitely the 80's when I saw it.. and as for the copyrights, I am not sure, but there are plenty examples of copyright infringement by tv stations playing international material..

Robotech comes to mind especially..

and in the 1980's it wasn't exactly the enforcement focus it is today.. heck the interpol laws on video and movie copyrights were only passed inthe usa in 1978.. and at that time, i seriously doubt many stations took any of the international copyrights into consideration.. it was afterall the 80's..

and with no internet, being across the pond meant being in bumb-fu$% egypt..

truly with the advent of the net, we have become a more closely related world..

I still believe it is out there somewhere.. in the south.. Texas, Arkansas or Louisiana..

HEll we don't even enforce the laws for pot in California anymore, and even the border laws.. copyright over a privately held film?? in the south no less?? come on.. Did anyone watch Katrina?? corruption breeds down there, I used to live there.. LOL

bossier city.. bellaire elementary, curtis (tigers) middle school.. what what represent!! High school football team was the panthers!..

as to my recollection.. I remember it was on TV, and on the Public broadcasting station..cause they were doing a donation drive and everytiime they cut to commercial they did the pledge your money segment, and i remember wanting to get back to the episodes..

that is all I can say.. My memory isn't all that, but pretty mcuh I know I saw that episode in total..

I wish I could get some other Louisiana fans to corroborate my story..or make a machine to let you guys see what is in my mind..or take a poly graph to prove what I know..this is soooo frustrating..

like I said until recently, I thought that episdoe was available.. I even went on a search for it, and couldn't find anything online.. then I ran across that article and then placed it here for you guys to read..I was dismaryed to learn that any of them were lost.. what a fricken stupid thing to happen..

still I maintain, there is a stash somewhere in the south.. like lost golden treasure in someone's private collection or in some locked and long forgotten storage room.. or attic at some old ass TV affiliate station..

my only hope is someone reads this post, and tells someone else, who knows someone who remembers or has access to a place and actually finds it and sells it and we finally get to see it once more..

I bet you there are other gems too..

 

[C.E. Evans]

My local PBS station (KETC) was like fourth in the U.S. when it came to Doctor Who in the '80s, so I was lucky to be able to see all of the recovered episodes that were found up to 1990 or so...

 

[Mr Awe]

nope, it was definitely the 80's when I saw it..

Honestly, dude, there's no way you saw it on TV. Yeah, fans weren't on the Internet back then but there were still networks of fans and we all knew about the missing episodes. If it aired anywhere in the US, the news would've spread like wildfire.

You are somehow mistaken about what you saw.

Mr Awe

 

[Candlelight]

On the basis of that list from the missing episodes, Seasons Four and Five are least likely to exist, but had extensive enough sales for there to be hope, and there's a paper trail which shows many of them sent to a certain warehouse in New Zealand. If a memo shows what happened to them next, it might be a lead (or a dead end, if the address is 'An Incinerator[).

I made a list a while back of what serial went where going to and from NZ. Will try and find it. It's quite interesting. Marco Polo 1 & 2 went to Iran, but there is no documentation of what happened to 3-7. Also, The Crusade was never shown (or was it purchased?) here yet the viewing copy was found in 1999.

Incidentally, I work (or rather used to work) in the very building the film cans resided. We move out in a week. Very sad.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I made a list a while back of what serial went where going to and from NZ. Will try and find it. It's quite interesting. Marco Polo 1 & 2 went to Iran, but there is no documentation of what happened to 3-7. Also, The Crusade was never shown (or was it purchased?) here yet the viewing copy was found in 1999.

Incidentally, I work (or rather used to work) in the very building the film cans resided. We move out in a week. Very sad.

Keep digging. Look for loose sections of floor, hollow sounds in the walls, anything!

 

[Candlelight]

I made a list a while back of what serial went where going to and from NZ. Will try and find it.

Found it!

SENT TO SINGAPORE:
Galaxy 4
The Myth Makers
The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve
The Celestial Toymaker
The Savages
The Smugglers
The Tenth Planet
The Power of the Daleks

SENT TO IRAN:
Marco Polo (1 2)

RETURNED TO THE BBC:
The Faceless Ones**

DESTROYED:
Reign of Terror
The Crusade** (sans Part 1)
The Highlanders
The Macra Terror
The Evil of the Daleks

NEVER PURCHASED:
Mission to the Unknown
The Daleks’ Master Plan
The Invasion
The Space Pirates

FATE UNRECORDED:
Marco Polo* (3 - 7)
The Underwater Menace
The Moonbase*
The Abominable Snowmen
The Ice Warriors**
The Enemy of the World
The Web of Fear
Fury from the Deep**
The Wheel in Space

* A film can from this story was found in 1990, which might indicate the contents were discarded and the can simply reused.

** Unscreened.

None of the missing colour Pertwee episodes screened in New Zealand prior to the 80s.

 

[starsuperion]

nope, it was definitely the 80's when I saw it..

Honestly, dude, there's no way you saw it on TV. Yeah, fans weren't on the Internet back then but there were still networks of fans and we all knew about the missing episodes. If it aired anywhere in the US, the news would've spread like wildfire.

You are somehow mistaken about what you saw.

Mr Awe

I am a fan and didn't know about those missing episodes... and in the context of the 1980's would there really have been a wildfire news spread over that? I still maintain the scene I saw... if it was a clip and only a clip shown on tv, then I still saw that very scene...but like I said, were I able to project my memories on a tv screen, it would show what I saw..

could the canisters have been bought at private auction? maybe a studio affiliate sold them to a private purchaser rather then toss them in the trash??..someone somewhere must have thought there could be money made..

Dammit!! I know I saw that episode!! I have memories of troughton and a futuristic hallway running from 2 daleks!! the floor was dark and shinny..

dude, I am dead serious, I would take a polygraph just to show I am telling the truth to what I remember..

is any of this true??

lAthough conventional fan wisdom insists that the only black and white material that Canada contemporaneously bought was the first half of Season 1 (up to and including The Keys of Marinus), convincing eye-witness evidence now points to the fact that after the Canadian Broadcasting Company dropped the show from it's schedules, the various CBC affiliates continued to broadcast Doctor Who; there have been sightings of The Celestial Toymaker, The Moonbase, The Evil of the Daleks and The Invasion. Because of Canada's huge size, the CBC would make about 12 copies of the film prints for simultaneous broadcasting in different time zones. The opinions of various CBC staff members point to some of this material still existing, but widely dispersed over all of Canada. The BBC are currently attempting to ascertain the facts behind this story, and are attempting to obtain access to a storehouse in Toronto that is full of uncatalogued material: however they are encountering difficulties due to CBC's lack of staff and facilities when answering replies, and so far, all enquiries have been ignored.

Dramatic proof of Canada's purchasing of these Hartnell/Troughton episodes nearly materialised in 1994, when a film collector and science fiction fan named Lei (last name unknown), who owns his own film and/or television studio in Chicago, agreed to make recordings available to fans in the UK, after he showed Mission to the Unknown, the last two episodes of The Daleks Masterplan and The Celestial Toymaker to a British fan who was attending a convention in the US last year. Lei, who was a regular attendee at the annual 'Visions' convention in Chicago in November, acquired the black and white (and later colour) episodes from his father, who broadcast them from his own TV station in Northern Canada: the father liked Doctor Who so much, that he couldn't bear to destroy the episodes, so he decided to keep them and told nobody that he still owned them, even though they couldn't be broadcast. Unfortunately, relations with this man and the BBC have soured over the years, so he does not feel obliged to return the prints and video tapes to their legal 'owner'. This chap seems to own all the episodes of Doctor Who, but eight of them are damaged/substandard due to the age of the film and general wear-and-tear, etc., and, as a precaution, Lei is (or was) busy transferring all the episodes to Laser Disc as safety copies (previously, they had been transferred to 1 inch VT).


So far as I know, the more recent hunt that was sparked off by Tomb has unearthed no more lost classics, although I find it doubtful that all 28 past overseas customers will have replied to BBC Enterprises queries... Iran and CBC Edmonton in Canada come to mind as two examples that have been extremely unhelpful in the past.
I am convinced that more episodes do exist in this country in the hands of private collectors, either 'innocent' film buffs who are unaware as to the true value of their possessions, or by unscrupulous selfish fans who hoard such rare treasures, possibly because of the rarity value, and probably for financial gain. A few years ago, there were rumours that fans were hoarding episodes to themselves, and that the film cans were hidden in safety deposit boxes and in bank vaults. I cannot help but think about the find of a missing BBC "Likely Lads" episode fromt the 1960s. From reports, it took a lot of persuasion, and negative publicity for the collector to part with it.
Film collectors are notorious for not lending out 'their' property... the most recent case in point is the Christmas 1966 edition of Till Death Us Do Part, Peace and Goodwill, a 17 minute fragment of which was shown at the British Film Institute's 'Missing - Believed Wiped' campaign in October 1993. Despite assurances from the owner of that print, he has not yet honoured his promise to lend it to the BBC for duplication purposes

Rumours concerning the missing episodes are constantly in circulation; for instance Marco Polo:2 (entitled The Singing Sands), Evil of the Daleks:5 and The Tenth Planet:4 are all said to exist.
The latter one of these is the subject of more rumour and speculation than any other 'lost' episode (at least, after Tomb was found!) because of a strange incident that occurred during the 1970s purge., and before the story was junked by BBC Enterprises in 1974.
The 16mm telerecording of that episode had been requisitioned by the cjildren's magazine programme Blue Peter so that the transformation from Bill Hartnell to Pat Troughton could be incorporated into a 10th anniversary special on November 5th, 1973.
After acquiring a clip, the episode apparently, allegedly "vanished" sometime after telecine on 12.15pm on November 5th from the Blue Peter production office. That was not the only episode to have 'vanished'; The Daleks Masterplan:4 (The Traitors) also went AWOL at the same time. This episode of Masterplan was used by researchers because it features a unique event - the death of one of the Doctor's companions, Katarina, and also because it also featured one of the current Blue Peter presenters, Peter Purves.

this webpage I just found is interesting, it tells the story of the search for episodes throughout the years from the perspective of the fan community..it includes rumours and speculation reported to the fan community and apparently shared at events, and chronicled.. as well as factual data..

http://www.paullee.com/drwho/missingwithouttrace.html

apparently there are also fan reconstructed episodes which use clips from various resources.. and is not official (one wonders why the BBC has yet to do some of these the way we see the fans do them, maybe a lack of funding is the problem..)
http://www.recons.com/recons/lc10.htm

however, this site includes surviving clips!
http://dwclips.steve-p.org/

 

[Mr Awe]

nope, it was definitely the 80's when I saw it..

Honestly, dude, there's no way you saw it on TV. Yeah, fans weren't on the Internet back then but there were still networks of fans and we all knew about the missing episodes. If it aired anywhere in the US, the news would've spread like wildfire.

You are somehow mistaken about what you saw.

Mr Awe

I am a fan and didn't know about those missing episodes... and in the context of the 1980's would there really have been a wildfire news spread over that?

I was a fan in the 80s and definitely knew all about the missing episodes. And, yes, a sighting would've spread like wildfire. You might not have known but enough others would've.

I just don't see how it would be possible, that something like that would air and not cause a ruckus.

Mr Awe

 

[Bones2]

It's hard to accept now that they'd nonchalantly chuck Evil of the Daleks into a fire. It really was a different time.

 

[starsuperion]

Honestly, dude, there's no way you saw it on TV. Yeah, fans weren't on the Internet back then but there were still networks of fans and we all knew about the missing episodes. If it aired anywhere in the US, the news would've spread like wildfire.

You are somehow mistaken about what you saw.

Mr Awe

I am a fan and didn't know about those missing episodes... and in the context of the 1980's would there really have been a wildfire news spread over that?

I was a fan in the 80s and definitely knew all about the missing episodes. And, yes, a sighting would've spread like wildfire. You might not have known but enough others would've.

well when I lived in Louisiana, I was like 10, 11, and 12 when I used to watch Dr. Who.. so It was a long time ago.. and I was still trying to get the doctor who magazines at my local comics shops..which were hard to do.. though I do have an impressive Marvel comics collection of the doctor who books..bagged and boarded..

but as for the missing episodes, I was too young to have been inquisitive enough to have discovered that info..

but I tell you my recollection of seeing those scenes of the evil of the daleks is true..as to what if they were clips or not I am unsure, I remember the store..some scenes there, the doctor running, and the dalek emperor with the smoke coming from the tubes... but for the most part that is it.. and the scenes I remember were moving and with sound, not stills..

I just don't see how it would be possible, that something like that would air and not cause a ruckus.

Mr Awe

well, I don't know.. I can not answer to that Mr. Awe.. I am not sure.. I just remember that it was on TV and I remember those key bits is all I can attest to..I have been reading a lot of stuff online recently since I began this post, and I have found that there seems to be a lot of personal holdings, and some CDC videos which may be in existence, and are not forth coming to the BBC..

there seems to be some collectors who hold some of these episodes and sell them on private auctions to each other for big money, and it appears that some far off stations in canada may have some episodes in a store house somewhere and are just unaware and or don't care to even look for them..

so Maybe I did see a copy of that show, maybe it doesn't exist anymore, or maybe it was aired without the rights to the BBC properly given, who knows..

all I can safely say is, I believe that the "Evil of the Daleks" exists on this side of the water, an is somewhere in the US and or in Canadian hands..

and I remember clips, live action clips from it..vividly..

 

[diankra]

I made a list a while back of what serial went where going to and from NZ. Will try and find it.

Found it!

SENT TO SINGAPORE:
Galaxy 4
The Myth Makers
The Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve
The Celestial Toymaker
The Savages
The Smugglers
The Tenth Planet
The Power of the Daleks

SENT TO IRAN:
Marco Polo (1 2)

RETURNED TO THE BBC:
The Faceless Ones**

DESTROYED:
Reign of Terror
The Crusade** (sans Part 1)
The Highlanders
The Macra Terror
The Evil of the Daleks

NEVER PURCHASED:
Mission to the Unknown
The Daleks’ Master Plan
The Invasion
The Space Pirates

FATE UNRECORDED:
Marco Polo* (3 - 7)
The Underwater Menace
The Moonbase*
The Abominable Snowmen
The Ice Warriors**
The Enemy of the World
The Web of Fear
Fury from the Deep**
The Wheel in Space

* A film can from this story was found in 1990, which might indicate the contents were discarded and the can simply reused.

** Unscreened.

None of the missing colour Pertwee episodes screened in New Zealand prior to the 80s.

Thanks for retrieving that. What would really be interesting to know is... was Tomb also in the consignment TVNZ sent to Singapore?
ISTR I first saw that list (or an early version of it) around 2000, long after Tomb of the Cybermen had been retrieved from Hong Kong, and of course the list only includes missing episodes.
But if Tomb was among the serials sent to Singapore, then that might be how a copy ended up in Hong Kong and turned up in 1992. And if Tomb could get there...

 

[Winterwind]

all I can safely say is, I believe that the "Evil of the Daleks" exists on this side of the water, an is somewhere in the US and or in Canadian hands..

Alright. I admit it. I have it. But you'll never see it until the Beeb coughs up some serious cash!