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Will there ever be any novels set between 2161 and 2254?

Like I said earlier, the various different Star Trek productions that we pretend to be in a single timeline have many contradictions among them, some of them huge. And it's a double standard to gloss over those while insisting that the new movie's differences of interpretation require it to be a separate reality. Is DS9 a separate reality from TNG because its Trill look totally different and have no problem using transporters? Is Insurrection a separate reality from TNG because Deanna did kiss Riker with a beard in TNG? Is The Search for Spock a separate reality from The Wrath of Khan because Saavik looks very different? If we can excuse a change in the appearance of a character, why not the appearance of a ship or its technology?
 
^ Not to mention, also, what was said on screen about Archer's "prized beagle".

I know many families who buy the same breeds of dog as their parents and grandparents. My Dad's family always had fox terriers, usually called Foxy. My Mum's family favoured Australian silky terriers.

If the reference was to Jonathan Archer's son or grandson, it's no surprise they owned a prized beagle.

no one's ever claimed that TMP took place in a different continuity than TOS.

I have fanzines from 1980 and a volume of "The Best of Trek" in which angry fans claim just that.
 
McCoy was born a century later. It stands to reason that longevity would be greater for his generation.

The oldest verified person to have ever lived died in 1997 at the age of 122 years. The others on the top ten list are around 116-ish. That is with modern 20th and 21st century medicine. taking into fact the average life expectancy today is around 80, whereas 150 years ago it was in the low 40s and then pushing that ahead another 150 or so years, assuming the rates stay the same (I'd be willing to bet they'd go up significantly after contact with the Vulcans) that's 120. knock off 20 years for good measure because I don't want to over estimate and we're still at 100. At the time of Enterprise when Johnathan Archer was only in his late 30s, early 40s. I'm pretty sure the most celebrated man of his generation is going to receive some of the best medical care around, I don't think it's much of a stretch saying he'd be alive in the 2250's... after all, the non-canon death date for him says he died in 2245 would make him 133, only 11 years older than the oldest recorded person now. Is it really so much of a stretch when you consider the facts?

I conceed the point that the writers motivations are not canon, but when you take what the writer meant to say one one hand, and you stack it up with real world knowledge on the other and then you morph into a Edosian and put in your other hand the fact that its a science fiction story... yes, I know you're playing devil's advocate, but the evidence is mounting. Sci's title's being mixed up theory was shot down, the improbability of his age seems to be not so improbable... those are the major arguments.

I'll say it again, I AGREE with you both that it appears to be a simple parallel universe created at one particular point of divergence shown in the film, not an entirely new universe created sometime way before the fact. We AGREE. What I didn't agree with was one statement which was simply false that I have sense corrected.

I do have to say that Captain Robert April made a few good points, but so did Sci. I'm still inclined to view any aesthetic differences as Christopher was saying: inherent contradictions in a 45 year old fandom.

I think that the Kelvin and The Cage era tech look clearly different, but they are going to. The differences in the way the Enterprise looks are not really all that important... unless you want to see jelly bean buttons on the bridge of a starship. We can argue forever about which one came from which or which one looks more advanced than the other. It could go either way. I'm going to rewatch the film today and see what I think, then step back into this particular debate.
 
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^You didn't "correct" anything "false." We're talking about a single throwaway line in a movie, and any interpretation beyond what was stated in the movie is purely speculative. It's downright obnoxious to claim that your speculation is the only "true" one. There is no "true" answer to which Archer it was, because canon doesn't specify and everything beyond canon is purely conjectural, even if it's spoken by the writers themselves.

And it's stupid to waste so much time on such an inconsequential bit of trivia. Let it drop already.
 
^You didn't "correct" anything "false." We're talking about a single throwaway line in a movie, and any interpretation beyond what was stated in the movie is purely speculative. It's downright obnoxious to claim that your speculation is the only "true" one. There is no "true" answer to which Archer it was, because canon doesn't specify and everything beyond canon is purely conjectural, even if it's spoken by the writers themselves.

And it's stupid to waste so much time on such an inconsequential bit of trivia. Let it drop already.

Nobody said it was Jonathan Archer. Could've been his grandchild.

This comment, this one right here that I'm quoting is the false one. Someone in fact DID say it was jonathan archer. no, not in the film itself but someone important did say it, the writers. I've dropped the "it's cannon" idea because both you and Sci convinced me otherwise. I'm also not saying that it has to be true in the context of the film, interpert it however you want. Hell, I'm not even saying it's my own personal speculation, I'm just going with what Orci and Kurtzman said. What I am saying is that SOMEONE SAID IT AND YOUR STATEMENT SAYING NO ONE DID IS FALSE.

It would be like you hinting at one thing in a book, meaning for it to be X, making public statements to that effect, someone saying "no no no, it clearly doesn't mean X, it means Y and no one ever said it means X", and then me saying "Christopher, the writer of the book said it meant X not Y". I'd be inclined to believe what you intended it to mean, however I do see what you're saying (as I already said) and it could mean something else.

You call me obnoxious. That is an opinion, and at times I would be inclined to believe it. Do you want to know what I think is obnoxious? You can't admit when you're wrong. We've hit on some pretty heated debates before and there comes a point in each of them, much like where we are right about now, where I quote your words and you suddenly stop responding to what I have to say. I don't know if you're going to do it here, but you've done it at least twice before in other threads. I am trying very hard to like you, I like your books, but when you say things like "It's stupid to waste time on such an inconsequential bit of trivia." it makes it very hard for me to respect you. I've said it to you before, this is the very reason we're here. There is no waste of time. If you don't like what we're talking about, if you don't like the subject matter or you think it's silly or stupid of us to talk about it... leave. Don't call us names. That is not only obnoxious, but it's rude. Just because you've written some good books before doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful, in fact I would say it makes you more accountable for what you say to your fans.

I'm not going to continue the argument at the archer point, because I've quoted for you what you said and my reply to it once again. I would however like to hear your reply, Christopher. I'd like to hear your reply, be it a short "you're right" to a long "you're absolutely wrong" or somewhere in between. I don't hold out much hope that you'll agree with me, or that what I've said will mean much of anything to you, but I'd still like to hear what you have to say.
 
I don't get it. Why else would they mention a character named Archer, knowing that there'd be the name recognition, unless it was the same person.

Occam's Razor, anyone?
 
^You didn't "correct" anything "false." We're talking about a single throwaway line in a movie, and any interpretation beyond what was stated in the movie is purely speculative. It's downright obnoxious to claim that your speculation is the only "true" one. There is no "true" answer to which Archer it was, because canon doesn't specify and everything beyond canon is purely conjectural, even if it's spoken by the writers themselves.

And it's stupid to waste so much time on such an inconsequential bit of trivia. Let it drop already.

Nobody said it was Jonathan Archer. Could've been his grandchild.

This comment, this one right here that I'm quoting is the false one. Someone in fact DID say it was jonathan archer. no, not in the film itself but someone important did say it, the writers. I've dropped the "it's cannon" idea because both you and Sci convinced me otherwise. I'm also not saying that it has to be true in the context of the film, interpert it however you want. Hell, I'm not even saying it's my own personal speculation, I'm just going with what Orci and Kurtzman said. What I am saying is that SOMEONE SAID IT AND YOUR STATEMENT SAYING NO ONE DID IS FALSE.

It would be like you hinting at one thing in a book, meaning for it to be X, making public statements to that effect, someone saying "no no no, it clearly doesn't mean X, it means Y and no one ever said it means X", and then me saying "Christopher, the writer of the book said it meant X not Y". I'd be inclined to believe what you intended it to mean, however I do see what you're saying (as I already said) and it could mean something else.

You call me obnoxious. That is an opinion, and at times I would be inclined to believe it. Do you want to know what I think is obnoxious? You can't admit when you're wrong. We've hit on some pretty heated debates before and there comes a point in each of them, much like where we are right about now, where I quote your words and you suddenly stop responding to what I have to say. I don't know if you're going to do it here, but you've done it at least twice before in other threads. I am trying very hard to like you, I like your books, but when you say things like "It's stupid to waste time on such an inconsequential bit of trivia." it makes it very hard for me to respect you. I've said it to you before, this is the very reason we're here. There is no waste of time. If you don't like what we're talking about, if you don't like the subject matter or you think it's silly or stupid of us to talk about it... leave. Don't call us names. That is not only obnoxious, but it's rude. Just because you've written some good books before doesn't give you the right to be disrespectful, in fact I would say it makes you more accountable for what you say to your fans.

I'm not going to continue the argument at the archer point, because I've quoted for you what you said and my reply to it once again. I would however like to hear your reply, Christopher. I'd like to hear your reply, be it a short "you're right" to a long "you're absolutely wrong" or somewhere in between. I don't hold out much hope that you'll agree with me, or that what I've said will mean much of anything to you, but I'd still like to hear what you have to say.

Why bother? Just add him to your ignore list as I had done quite a while ago. Believe me, it makes visiting here a lot less frustrating.
 
What I am saying is that SOMEONE SAID IT AND YOUR STATEMENT SAYING NO ONE DID IS FALSE.

Um. I'm fairly certain that it was implicit in the meaning of Christopher's initial comment that he meant nobody in the film said it, not nobody ever. If for no other reason than that the person he'd been replying to had just said it.
 
If that's the case then why didn't he mention that when I first brought it up instead of arguing the point? I was very clear in my meaning, I said the writers said it up front in my very first post. If he was talking about simply the on film dialogue he could have said so. But instead, the point that the writers words outside of the script aren't canonical was argued (and won) by Christopher and you.
 
Maybe I can pull this back on topic...

maybe...

I love reading novels that are set in the various lost era's of trek's future history. Novels like Burning Dreams gave us a little bit of insight into this missing era, but not much. Dave Stern's new Pike centered tale (Children of Kings?) will be in this era, and some of S.D. Perry's Inception may also be in this time period (here's hoping ;)).

With the new movie out now, it seems like the the prime universe will probably be lit-exclusive, so I'm thinking we'll see more and more books in this era over the next bunch of years. As the primeverse only split with the JJverse in 2233, it seems like the period of 2233-2263 is ripe for storytelling!
 
^Just remember:

As Spock Prime noted, in the Prime Universe, George Kirk lives at least until 2262, to see Kirk recieve command of the Enterprise, at the age of 29, as per Vonda's Enterprise: The First Adventure.
 
^Just remember:

As Spock Prime noted, in the Prime Universe, George Kirk lives at least until 2262, to see Kirk recieve command of the Enterprise, at the age of 29, as per Vonda's Enterprise: The First Adventure.

But I thought George Kirk Prime died before that, on Hellspawn in 2250? :)
 
^Just remember:

As Spock Prime noted, in the Prime Universe, George Kirk lives at least until 2262, to see Kirk recieve command of the Enterprise, at the age of 29, as per Vonda's Enterprise: The First Adventure.

I thought Prime-Kirk got command in 2264 at the age of 30/31? If he had the Enterprise in 2262, wouldn't his 5YM have ended in 2267? And TMP would then be pushed to 2269/70 instead of 2272/73 as per Decker's line about Kirk not logging a "space hour" (or some such thing ) in two and a half years...
 
^Just remember:

As Spock Prime noted, in the Prime Universe, George Kirk lives at least until 2262, to see Kirk recieve command of the Enterprise, at the age of 29, as per Vonda's Enterprise: The First Adventure.

I thought Prime-Kirk got command in 2264 at the age of 30/31? If he had the Enterprise in 2262, wouldn't his 5YM have ended in 2267? And TMP would then be pushed to 2269/70 instead of 2272/73 as per Decker's line about Kirk not logging a "space hour" (or some such thing ) in two and a half years...

Only if you assume the 5YM started when Kirk took command of the Enterprise. He could have had other shorter missions before being deployed on the 5YM
 
The official chronology has Kirk getting command a year or so before "The Corbomite Maneuver", with "Where No Man Has Gone Before" taking place shortly before the five-year mission started. Take Kirk's onscreen-stated age of 34 in "The Deadly Years" in the second season, extrapolate from there, add in some wiggle room to account for when Kirk got the orders, when the transfer actually took place, time for refit, and I think Kirk's age for when he assumed command could be pushed back to around 31 or 32, depending on how close to his birthday he got the word.

The details matter, or the story, and the setting, have no integrity.
 
^Well, the official chronology also has first contact with the Klingons as 2218--due to an alleged McCoy line in "Day Of The Dove"--which he did not say....:rolleyes:

Anyway, canon later established first contact as 2151, as per ENT's "Broken Bow".
 
I thought Prime-Kirk got command in 2264 at the age of 30/31? If he had the Enterprise in 2262, wouldn't his 5YM have ended in 2267? And TMP would then be pushed to 2269/70 instead of 2272/73 as per Decker's line about Kirk not logging a "space hour" (or some such thing ) in two and a half years...

Only if you assume the 5YM started when Kirk took command of the Enterprise. He could have had other shorter missions before being deployed on the 5YM

The Making of Star Trek postulated that as of the second season, Kirk had been in command of the Enterprise for four years. That's where the idea comes from that Kirk took command two years before the 5-year mission of TOS began.
 
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