Will O'Brien Ever Get "Mustanged"?

[USS Triumphant]

I have, perhaps correctly and perhaps not, taken the existence of non-commissioned ranks in Starfleet to be a way for people of lesser education to participate in the "common adventure" of the Federation. Usually, these people would come from newer and/or less advanced worlds of the Federation or its allies, but presumably some also come from "core worlds" and just never took to the educational methods used by the Federation.

O'Brien seems like he could be one of the latter - a never-do-well boy growing up who lacked focus and had a penchant for getting into fights. A boy who preferred rough-and-tumble activities to book learning. He loved starships and had a little natural talent with engineering, but never put his skills to paper. Still, he enlisted with Starfleet.

But that was in his earlier years. Since then, he's held a moderately high post on the Federation flagship, practically been chief engineer for DS9, and been instrumental in defeating the Dominion. He's settled down a bit in temperament along the way, too, and worked and learned from some of the best commissioned engineers in the 'fleet.

Will O'Brien ever get "mustanged" into a commissioned rank? Obviously, this is total speculation, but thoughts on this are very welcome.

 

[JustKate]

That's odd - I've wondered about this, too, perhaps because I have known a couple of mustangs in my time.

I would say he ought to qualify...but of course, that depends entirely on whether there is even a process for this in Starfleet. I could be wrong, but I would suspect that because Starfleet is such a by-the-book organization (I admire Starfleet, but the plain fact is we are not talking about an easy-going group of people), the only way O'Brien could break out of the non-comms is if he went back, got the academic qualifications, and jumped through whatever hoops you have to jump through in order to make officer. I would hope that they would at least not start him as a JG!

 

[Aquehonga]

Very interesting thread USS_Triumphant

If I remember correctly, Miles became Professor O'Brien at series end yes

So, maybe the combination of his 1701-D/DS9 experience(s) & his professorship {adjunct or tenured?} would open new doors for O'Brien (?).

Miles always, understandably, reminded me of Scottie.

Maybe O'Brien's future will parallel Mr. Scott's life (?).

O'Brien Captain of Engineering on the Excelsior-D?

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hi everybody..

If starfleet is patterned after the 'regular' military, then there are basically two ways to join;

One is to enlist, where the requirements are less specific. When a person enlists, they recieve basic training and education on rules and procedures that allow them to perform the duties they will be assigned to later. The enlisted person also gets to choose his or her specialty..

The other is to either attend an academy or military school, where upon graduation, the person recieves an automatic commission, which gives them the right to be officers, automatically outranking enlisted personel.

An enlisted person can also recieve a commission by attending officer candidate school, or recieve an on the spot promotion by a higher ranking officer that can do this.

I believe both types receive the same basic education and training in the beginning, the difference is the career choice - enlisted or officer.

From what I seen, a higher ranking 'noncom' will still carry a lot of authority, especially in the absence of the officer.

Do you think Star Trek and maybe T.N.G focused too much on the officers and not as much as being a simple enlisted officer?

Remember how Wesely got a promotion to acting ensign, which actually put him over personel who had years of training and service and experience?

 

[Karnbeln]

Do you think Star Trek and maybe T.N.G focused too much on the officers and not as much as being a simple enlisted officer?

Remember how Wesely got a promotion to acting ensign, which actually put him over personel who had years of training and service and experience?

It did. Roddenberry, by the time in his life that he was creating TNG, felt that everyone in Starfleet would be a commissioned officer, and everyone would go to the academy. Everyone in Starfleet would be on equal footing, so only experience (in the form of rank and years served) would matter in the chain of command. That's why O'Brien was a lieutenant in TNG. When Roddenberry left, other producers wanted to bring non-comms back into the show, which resulted in ret-conning O'Brien's rank to an enlisted rank.

Under Roddenberry's officer-only concept, Wesley would still be the lowest ranking person because he would be an ensign with zero years as his seniority. Introducing non-comms does make the acting ensign status weird, though.

 

[JustKate]

Yeah, but from what I hear, it's pretty weird for, say, a master sergeant to be commanded by a wet-behind-the-ears second lieutenant (a.k.a. "a butter-bar," or so my spousal unit tells me). But it happens out here in the real world. A smart 2nd Lt. doesn't do a whole lot of commanding, but technically, he or she is in command.

 

[jamestyler]

I never saw it as an educational thing... to me the shaky logic of the Trek world seems to be that without monies (which - if I were in charge, I'd retcon straight away) we will do what we do to either contribute to society, or because it's something that interests us or makes us happy.

Say O'Brien decided he wanted to be in Starfleet. Maybe to go to space, maybe to join in a cause (war? he was a soldier at some stage of his career, afterall) but just simply didn't want to be an officer.

It's not as if you're getting paid more and you can do what you want without the responsibility of command.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Hi everyone,

JustKate pointed out something ironic that actually happens- a newly promoted officer, a 2nd lieutenant, can have authority or command over a highly experienced non commision offficer or enlisted servicemen.

I'm not certain, but I think when a cadet attains an academy, during the first few years, they are already awarded with a rank of a non commissioned officer (sergent, sergent major ect) , and at graduation, they receive their commission.

So if Starfleet is similar, then a 2nd year cadet already has the rank of a chief petty officer! Maybe it boils down to specialized training that cadets get?

Obrien never 'got the chair', not even for a second, in T.N.G...

However on DS9, Obrien was left in charge of OPS and was the chief engineer for the Defiant and DS9, the entire chief of operations..

It was interesting how in one episode, Obrien has to give Worf a few pointers on commanding enlisted personel.

 

[jamestyler]

It was mentioned a few times... there was the TNG ep where the bridge was cut off from everywhere else (I can't remember what one it was) leaving O'Brien, Ro and Troi alone and making decisions. Troi was he highest ranking officer and took command despite O'Brien being more experienced, arguably the right man for the job.

The way I see it that's fine. Troi wasn't the right person to command, but any other command officer (say Worf, Sisko, Picard etc) would keep his opinion on board in a crisis in his specialised fields which would fall into engineering or command.

In Rules of Engagement he was asked if he could take command in combat and his answer was 'I would have' so clearly he's capable. He also has a command role with his own department and quite a high enlisted ranking, so he's not exactly the typical crewman we've seen (such as his team in Starship Down).

The only other moments I can think of was when Nog became an ensign and O'Brien made a command about having to call him sir, Bashir pushing his authority...

...but yeah I've lost my point somewhere (need more coffee), he's got a level of authority in his job at DS9, he's got experience to listen to and advise and if needed he'll use that experience to command (Empok Nor may count on that one) but his career choice just meas he serves, not leads.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Star Trek, IMO, tends to glamorize officers largely because every series focuses on them rather than the enlisted men and women who really should be handling most of the action. Trek kind of has it completely backward in the sense that we see more officers than enlisted on the show.

Personally, I don't think O'Brien needs to be commissioned. As a senior chief, he would already be considered the top authority in his field of expertise by both officers and enlisted alike (which seemed to be the case on DS9). I think the only situation that would require O'Brien to be commissioned is if he was reassigned to head a department on a new ship or a starbase and his assistants were already officers...

 

[MikeH92467]

I remember seeing a History Channel show that featured the command master sergeant...the highest ranking enlisted man in the corps. The question came up of how it felt to have to take orders from wet behind the ears Academy Graduate. He said firmly that he was "proud" to take orders from young officers. That it was part of the great tradition of the corps. However, there's more to it than that. In day to day affairs its the non-coms who are the backbone of the organization. It basically works out that officers give orders and non-coms decide who they will be carried out. Talk to anyone who's been in the American military and they'll explain it more clearly, I"m sure.

Anyway, I've always thought O'Brien should have been given a Warrant officers rank. It gives rank pay and priveleges equivalent to commissioned officers to enlisted personnel who may have technical skills and experience that need to be rewarded. Warrant Officers also don't have to worry as much about the career ladder. In most services, the officers have to constantly change jobs (or what's called "ticket punching") to build their resume for the next promotion. Warrant ranks are dead ends because the highest you can go is WO-5 (about the equivalent of a Lieutenant Colonel or Commander) but it also creates a way to reward superior performers who may not qualify or be interested in climbing the career ladder.

 

[Lindley]

O'Brien stayed an enlisted man so he wouldn't be expected to show up to formalwear occasions. He said so.

 

[Drake]

In the wake of the Dominion War and the massive casualties suffered by Starfleet, I can easily imagine O'Brien being offered not only a commission, but at a relatively senior rank (Lieutenant Commander perhaps). There are parallels for this in Earth history under emergency situations. The USMC, for example, promoted a number of senior NCOs to higher officer's rank at the outbreak of World War II. One can also imagine that a considerable number of Starfleet personnel would opt to leave the service after having undergone what had to be three years of hell. Under such circumstances, fast track promotions would become the norm. Whether or not, O'Brien would accept such a promotion is another question. Given his expertise on the subject, Starfleet, having fewer options than before the war, might be more flexible in granting him faculty status even if he chose to remain enlisted.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I think the whole idea of "everyone goes to the academy and becomes an officer" is a bit silly and really unrealistic.

You have to figure that, given the number of starships, starbases, colonies, science stations, etc that Starfleet is immense and probably dwarfs all the current major military organizations combined.

In order to support this year in and year out, the academy's incoming class each year would have to in the thousands if not tens of thousands because you still have to account for washouts, specialty personal, and short-timers and the like. A campus needed to support this would have to be HUGE. I don't think the Presidio is that big.

Also, aside from Bones, there really isn't any example of an OTC. In the modern military, OTC (both during and after) college make up a huge percentage of the officers--maybe even the majority. Yet, Bones seems to be the only example and this might suggest that they make exceptions of needed specialists: Doctors, renowned scientists and specialists in various fields, etc. So where do all those officers come from?

One also has to consider that some people just don't want to become officers. It doesn't mean they're any less intelligent. Heck, I'd bet that currently there are hundreds of people who are college grads who chose to enlist instead of going to OTC.


There's no evidence the O'Brien didn't go to college. All we know is his father wanted him to study the cello and instead, the Chief enlisted. For all we know, he could have a degree in musical performance from the University of Dublin.

There are some advantages and there are also certain obligations that officers must adhere to. As Lindley pointed out, O'Brien hated having to schmooze with the top brass. This is only one silly example. There are others. For a lot of people the only justification for becoming an officer is monetary. But presumably in the Trek twenty-fourth century universe, that's completely irrelevant.

The seniority thing is also kind of overblown. Rank isn't the only thing that applies. One's position is also a determining factor. The Chief was the senior operations person on DS9/Defiant. There are probably people under his command of higher rank, but he still has command over them. And, he is, as far as the chain of command is concerned, considered a "senior officer/staff member." Likewise, Harry was a senior officer aboard Voyager and had command privileges over others of higher rank.

In that regard "Rules of Engagement" actually got it right.

This was very common during World War II--especially on submarines. Because the man power resources were so limited and spread so thin, experienced sailors where in short supply. In a lot of instance you had one veteran officer as captain and then a few other nuggets fresh out of the Academy/OTC in key positions. In those situations, it was common for the captain to make a CPO or Master Chief his XO. Those junior officers didn't have to salute/Sir him, but they did have to follow his orders. It is a fairly common wartime practice.

Because of this, it's not that big of a stretch to think that, because The Chief had, by far, the most combat expierence, Worf (and presumeably Dax during the Ocupation arc) did the same.

So really, the officer thing is kind of overrated.

 

[Red Ranger]

I think O'Brien should be mustanged, and given a full lieutenant's rank to start -- skip over ensign and lieutenant, j.g. Hell, if O'Brien wanted, he could've been an officer after his tour on the Rutledge. After all, in The Wounded, Captain Maxwell had high praise for O'Brien's abilities as a tactical officer, as I recall. -- RR

 

[Drake]

Agreed. A problem I've always had with the various series and movies is the unrealistically high proportion of officers to enlisted crew. An early 1960s era American submarine, USS Tullibee, according to one source, carried 6 officers and 60 crew. A later Los Angelas class submarine had 12 officers and 115 crew. An Adams class destroyer seems to have carried 20 officers and 340 enlisted. On a German submarine during World War II, the Third Watch Officer (who was also the navigator) was in fact what we would call a senior NCO. The problem stems from an early series concept that all crew personnel aboard a starship were astronauts and therefore officers. Unfortunately when Roddenberry and his top series developers were was thinking of astronauts, they were drawing a parallel with the select few serving in the early days of NASA. These people were, of course, also test pilots and possessed advanced degrees in various technical subjects as well. They were operating and testing experimental space vehicles. This is not an exact parallel to a starship, which would be more analogous to a modern warship, albeit with additional scientific and exploratory functions (shades of old sailing navy days in fact). There really should be far more "rankers" seen aboard ship performing duties ranging from the "mundane" daily chores to highly complex and responsible positions. And woe unto the newly minted ensign who tries to brace the Command Master Chief.

 

[The Great Meech]

If I recall, there was an enlisted medic in TNG's "The Drumhead" who made a comment about wanting to go out to the stars instead of having to sit through several years at the academy. If O'Brien's at all similar, he may have simply wanted to leave home, and his decision to enlist had nothing to do with education at all.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I like Drake's point too. I think by the time T.N.G became popular, it made the fans fascinated with officer's rank- giving orders, taking the chair, being in command.

It made us pay attention to the officer's ranks and promotions too; We noticed how Geordi went from Lt. Junior Grade to Lt. Senior Grade, to Lt. Commander.

We noticed Worf's promotion to Lt. Senior Grade. At those conventions, you could always see the fans with the uniforms and those pips!

I think by the time of DS9 and Voyager, the fascination wore off a bit. We only noticed Sisko's promotion to captain, but later, Bashir's and Daxes promotions seemd somewhat unoticed, does anyone else get that feeling?

Same thing with Voyager- Tuvok's promotion went fairly unoticed as well.

I think for T.N.G, it was a fun time to just fantasize about rank and play with those pips..

 

[jamestyler]

Just had a thought, was it ST2 that kicked off the theme of having mostly enlisted personnel on the ship? I remember by the time 6 came around there was a line for all officers to report to the bridge, which made it seem as if only the main cast were in those ranks.

Is that a Nicholas Meyer thing? I can't remember any enlisted staff on TMP.

 

[Drake]

TMP showed a small number of enlisted personnel, most noticeably Chief Janice Rand. You are correct in noticing that ST2 through 6 showed the largest number of enlisted personnel, who were easily identified by their different uniforms. Costume designer Robert Fletcher even designed a complete range of rank insignia for those uniforms, but not all of them made it onto the screen. But he made references to enlisted ranks ranging from seaman (as he called it) through master chief petty officer. TNG was very vague and somewhat contradictary on the subject and it wasn't until DS9 that Miles O'Brien was formally established as a senior chief (petty officer). TOS had made occasional reference to Chief so-and-so and Technician 3rd Class and the like, but it was never really defined well.