Will Khan Still be From the 1990s?

[UFO]

But hold on a minute. If you travel into the past and create a new universe, travelling into the future will not take you back to the old universe but to the future of the new one, right? Crossing between universes would seem to be a different breed of animal.

That's when stuff like "Feynman Curves" come up. That, if slingshotting back through time, one has to exactly follow their trajectory, course and speed in a reverse course in order to return to the version of the future they left.

Spock Prime has no such option, since his travel method cannot be duplicated exactly.

If Spock had used the slingshot method he could indeed reverse it to go into the future, but only within his current universe. Neither method of time travel involves crossing from one universe to another. Its the reaction of the universe to the time travel event that creates the branch (as I understand it) no matter what TT method you use.

To put it another way, reversing course can't first merge the alt universe with the prime one (which it would need to, though its still wouldn't help) because the original course didn't create the new universe. It only handled sending you back in time in the same universe. So reversing course will just send you forward to the future of the new universe (which then causes another branch of course).

I guess what I am suggesting here is that while establishing a two way connection between parent and child universes might cause them to merge, you would need a completely different technology to travel from one to the other first because no form of time travel seems able to achieve that.

Actually it could even be worse than that. The very act of jumping from one universe to another could cause the target (prime) universe to branch whereupon you would not end up in the target but an exact copy of it!

If it's a two-way link between the uptime and downtime points, then what will happen is, the new timeline you created downtime will have merged back in with your original timeline and then overwritten your original timeline's quantum information.

OK, well maybe I don’t understand what constitutes a "two-way" link. Do you actually have to go back to the your original universe or does the mere fact that you could theoretically do so somehow automatically create the merger? The link would have to span universes it seems to me, not just past and future points in the same universe. How can it do that when it didn't itself cause the split? As I say, the reaction of the universe did that. I would be like leaving a trail of bread crumbs when going from A to B on one island but when you go to B a giant lifted you up and placed you on a new island. How do your bread crumbs help then?

I'm saying that there is no way even theoretically for a TT mechanism to get you back to your old universe. Even if it could, when you get to the future, there’s that pesky branching again. You would still have to jump back across to the prime universe, which could create a new universe and so on ... . If there is no way to establish a two way link, there can be no mergers.

Maybe you just can't go home.

 

[Sci]

If it's a two-way link between the uptime and downtime points, then what will happen is, the new timeline you created downtime will have merged back in with your original timeline and then overwritten your original timeline's quantum information.

OK, well maybe I don’t understand what constitutes a "two-way" link. Do you actually have to go back to the your original universe or does the mere fact that you could theoretically do so somehow automatically create the merger?

Something has to actually go through the same time portal into the uptime point from the downtime point. By all indications, the black hole that pushed the Narada and the Jellyfish into 2233/2258 was a purely one-way portal -- things only went downtime, nothing went through it uptime.

As you cite above, if Spock Prime were to attempt to travel uptime now, he would end up at an uptime point within the new timeline, and would not trigger a merger with his original timeline.

The link would have to span universes it seems to me, not just past and future points in the same universe.

Any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline; whether or not that new timeline stays branched off or merges back into the old one depends on what kind of time portal (two-way vs. one-way) is involved.

 

[Iamnotspock]

As you cite above, if Spock Prime were to attempt to travel uptime now, he would end up at an uptime point within the new timeline...

...in which Biff is corrupt and powerful, and married to your mother!

 

[UFO]

The link would have to span universes it seems to me, not just past and future points in the same universe.

Any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline; whether or not that new timeline stays branched off or merges back into the old one depends on what kind of time portal (two-way vs. one-way) is involved.

As I mentioned in my last post it doesn't seem there is any possible way to establish a two-way portal so that method of merging universes is also impossible as far as I can see.

Even if it had been possible to go forward again through Nero/Spock Prime's portal, it only operated within it's own universe. When the alt universe was created it would have done the same, meaning sending anyone entering it to the future of the alt universe.

As we both agree "any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline". This means trying to go back to your original future (thus creating a two-way link) would just create a new universe at the other end and prevent the two-way connection from ever being established. That's first assuming you have a method of getting back to your original universe (without that action also creating a branch) before you even start your time travel trip (TT is a single universe activity).

I can't see any way round it, can you? If you can't create a two-way connection, you can't merge child and parent universes. This would also seem to mean we can't reconcile the traditional and new branching forms of time travel.

 

[Sci]

The link would have to span universes it seems to me, not just past and future points in the same universe.

Any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline; whether or not that new timeline stays branched off or merges back into the old one depends on what kind of time portal (two-way vs. one-way) is involved.

As I mentioned in my last post it doesn't seem there is any possible way to establish a two-way portal so that method of merging universes is also impossible as far as I can see.

I'm not following your logic. (And it's inaccurate to call them "universes." They're not separate universes, they're the same universe in two different quantum states -- a river dividing into tributaries, not a completely separate river.)

Even if it had been possible to go forward again through Nero/Spock Prime's portal, it only operated within it's own universe. When the alt universe was created it would have done the same, meaning sending anyone entering it to the future of the alt universe.

No, if it had been a two-way portal, it would have linked the 2387 of the Prime Timeline with the 2233/2258 of the Alt Timeline, and then the alt timeline would have merged back into the Prime Timeline and overwritten the Prime Timeline's history.

As we both agree "any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline". This means trying to go back to your original future (thus creating a two-way link) would just create a new universe at the other end

No, because the divergence occurs at the destination of the portal, not at its point of origin.

In the ST09 example, we have three dates: The portal's origin in 2387, uptime of its destination, and its destinations in 2233 and 2258, downtime. Because the portal originates uptime, it creates an alternate timeline branch at its downtime destination (2233). Because the portal is one-way -- the Narada and the Jellyfish travel downtime, but no information travels uptime -- the alternate timeline branches off permanently from the Prime Timeline.

Had it been a two-way link, then the Alternate Timeline would have branched off for a while, but then have merged back into the Prime Timeline and overwritten the Prime Timeline's history. Someone or something traveling uptime would have indeed been deposited into the Prime Timeline -- but then the Prime Timeline's history would have been overwritten and the Alt Timeline merged into it, creating the practical effect of replacing the entire Prime Timeline with the Alt Timeline.

(Incidentally, my guess would be that the Red Matter Black Hole created two different branching timelines: One originating in 2233, and then another originating in 2258 with Spock Prime's arrival. The first would have merged into the Alt Timeline in which Spock arrived, overwriting its history with that of the Alt Timeline we saw after Spock Prime's arrival.)

 

[UFO]

As I mentioned in my last post it doesn't seem there is any possible way to establish a two-way portal so that method of merging universes is also impossible as far as I can see.

　
I'm not following your logic. (And it's inaccurate to call them "universes." They're not separate universes, they're the same universe in two different quantum states -- a river dividing into tributaries, not a completely separate river.).

Ah, thanks. Perhaps that clarification makes a difference, but unfortunately I don’t see it. I think we agree that the original blackhole/portal just transported Nero/Spook back in time (no quantum state changes involved). Once they got there the new quantum state (what I was calling a universe) was created. That doesn’t suggest to me that there should be a link between "2387 of the Prime Timeline with the 2233/2258 of the Alt Timeline" because the only link was in the same quantum state. Maybe when the universe was effectively copied, that link would be duplicate (in the new state), but I can see no reason to be think it would also link the two states of the prime universe. The link had finished doing its thing when the new state was created.
　

As we both agree "any form of time travel automatically creates a branching timeline". This means trying to go back to your original future (thus creating a two-way link) would just create a new universe at the other end.

　
No, because the divergence occurs at the destination of the portal, not at its point of origin.

Once again this seems to be just an assumption and one that appears contrary to the known facts. If going down-time creates a branching effect, I can see no reason to think going the other way wouldn’t, even if you could use the same "portal"/blackhole mechanism, unless you have information that suggests otherwise? Since more time travel in ST takes place using the slingshot around the sun system, my argument should be clearer with that. What you appear to be saying is that by reversing the exact (or very close) course, you can go back to your original timeline (quantum state). But clearly that is just as much a separate journey as the original trip. If the first creates a branching effect upon arrival, the other should too. Now that’s assuming it can somehow jump states/timelines/universes. There was nothing about the original trip that allows that, so why would reversing the course be any different? Reversing course would simply take you to the future of the new timeline (not the original one) . Thus there is no way of linking the timelines and therefore no merging of timelines as far as I can see. I hope that makes my logic a little clearer.

 

[Sci]

As I mentioned in my last post it doesn't seem there is any possible way to establish a two-way portal so that method of merging universes is also impossible as far as I can see.

　
I'm not following your logic. (And it's inaccurate to call them "universes." They're not separate universes, they're the same universe in two different quantum states -- a river dividing into tributaries, not a completely separate river.).

Ah, thanks. Perhaps that clarification makes a difference, but unfortunately I don’t see it. I think we agree that the original blackhole/portal just transported Nero/Spook back in time (no quantum state changes involved).

Well, if I understand things correctly, time is just a quantum state of an object, so, yes, time travel inherently involves a change in quantum state.

Once they got there the new quantum state (what I was calling a universe) was created. That doesn’t suggest to me that there should be a link between "2387 of the Prime Timeline with the 2233/2258 of the Alt Timeline" because the only link was in the same quantum state.

No. The instant information began to travel from 2387 to 2233, a new quantum state was created. The divergence into a different branching timeline (i.e., a new tributary diverging from the river) happened the instant the time portal linked the two dates. So the instant information from 2387 entered 2233, a new quantum state developed and the timeline branched off. So the link was always between two different branches -- all time portal links are inherently between two different branches; time travel never occurs within the same branch. Rather, time travel always occurs between two branches, and then sometimes one branch can merge back into and overwrite the original.

Bottom line: Read Christopher L. Bennett's Department of Temporal Investigations novels Watching the Clock (2011) and Forgotten History (2012). He explains things more clearly and in more detail that I, as he understands it better than I.

 

[UFO]

... I think we agree that the original blackhole/portal just transported Nero/Spook back in time (no quantum state changes involved).

Well, if I understand things correctly, time is just a quantum state of an object, so, yes, time travel inherently involves a change in quantum state.

Stop that. You're just trying to confuse me.

Once they got there the new quantum state (what I was calling a universe) was created. That doesn’t suggest to me that there should be a link between "2387 of the Prime Timeline with the 2233/2258 of the Alt Timeline" because the only link was in the same quantum state.

No. The instant information began to travel from 2387 to 2233, a new quantum state was created. The divergence into a different branching timeline (i.e., a new tributary diverging from the river) happened the instant the time portal linked the two dates. So the instant information from 2387 entered 2233, a new quantum state developed and the timeline branched off.

The thing I have difficulty with is that new quantum states are supposedly being created all the time even without time travel and they don't appear to have any connection that might or might not allow them to merge again. That suggests to me time travel is not itself the critical factor in creating new quantum states (of the branching variety anyway). Nor does it suggest there is necessarily any persisting link or "portal" between the future and said new branch. Indeed with the slingshot method particularly that is hard to imagine. So in the latter case there doesn't appear to be a link and in the STXI case it was only one way. What system of TT would allow a two-way link (and thus merging)? The Guardian perhaps but that's pretty atypical.

So the link was always between two different branches -- all time portal links are inherently between two different branches; time travel never occurs within the same branch. Rather, time travel always occurs between two branches, and then sometimes one branch can merge back into and overwrite the original.

Well in my view time travel doesn't occur between to separate branches. The new branch is just a by-product.

Bottom line: Read Christopher L. Bennett's Department of Temporal Investigations novels Watching the Clock (2011) and Forgotten History (2012). He explains things more clearly and in more detail that I, as he understands it better than I.

That may be, but given none of this is an established "fact", they may have it wrong too. Perhaps if I ever get a chance to read those books I will change my mind.

 

[Sci]

Bottom line: Read Christopher L. Bennett's Department of Temporal Investigations novels Watching the Clock (2011) and Forgotten History (2012). He explains things more clearly and in more detail that I, as he understands it better than I.

That may be, but given none of this is an established "fact", they may have it wrong too. Perhaps if I ever get a chance to read those books I will change my mind.

*shrugs* "Wrong, right?" We're talking about a hypothesis that has never been tested, so we'll probably never know. But is is a model for how time travel works that reconciles the two seemingly contradictory time travel models ("time can be re-written" vs. "time travel creates a new timeline") that have both been seen in Star Trek into a single, consistent whole.

 

[T'Cal]

I'm convinced the story is not about Khan.

 

[Set Harth]

Mr.Spock, you have the Khan.

 

[JWPlatt]

I see some straining to rationalize this problem with Khan and the 1990s, such as the slingshot effect threw a curve ball - or something.

The answer is simple. It can be revealed that TOS (e.g. Spock Prime) is not in our own timeline and Khan in the 1990s remains consistent... in a timeline somewhen. Problem solved. No other explanation necessary. Heck, they could change Khan to the 2190s in our timeline and reveal the new timeline is actually ours. Or not. I didn't read all the posts, so maybe someone already mentioned this.

 

[arsenal6]

Actually, Khan was clearly a not-very-Indian man of Spanish background rather than "vaguely Spanish."

All they really have to do is say "several centuries ago" and leave it at that.

I assume they'll stick with TWOK's "genetic engineering" retcon rather than returning to "Space Seed's" selective breeding explanation.

hes totally Indian from Punjab region.