Will Before Dishonors Ending Affect Voyager books? Spoilers!

[Trent Roman]

And what a thoroughly insulting and disproportionately hostile analogy. Get a sense of proportion, Roman -- we're not talking about issues of genuine life and death or global tragedy, and it's incredibly thoughtless, insensitive, and obnoxious for you to imply that your unhappiness with decisions in a line of fiction is in any way proportional or comparable to the decisions and tragedies being faced by people confronting the horror of war. You should be ashamed of yourself for trivializing such a tragedy in that way.

No need to get carried away. It was the only the first example of a past decision still being vigourously debated that came to mind (probably because of the news program running in the background at the time); if I had thought of something smaller-scale or more academic, I would have used that as an analogy instead. No suggestion that the situations were proportionate or otherwise comparable was intended. I think past discussions in this very forum have indicated that I am not one to reduce the suffering of civilians in wartime.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Rosalind]

Divine, I appreciate the gesture, but please take note of the announcement at the top of every forum, hotlink of images is agaist board rules.

Everyone else, behave.

 

[Amy Sisson]

Anyway, like it or not, Janeway's death is a fait accompli. It's pointless to debate whether it should've happened; it did. Now the only question is what comes next.

I would disagree that it's pointless to discuss it -- that's what discussion of literature or fiction is: talking about why the author (or in this case, editors also) did what she/he did? What did it achieve? Was it the best decision? How do other readers interpret xyz versus how I interpreted it? and so on. Heck, I got an entire college degree debating just such decisions.

And as a purely practical matter, it's worth discussing if only in that it tells the authors/editors what one reader's reaction was. Compile enough of those data points, and they could actually influence future decisions, couldn't they?

All that said, I know Christopher, and I know him well enough to know that he wasn't trying to prevent or stifle discussion per se. I think the hostility in this thread is a little premature.

As an aside, I think Dayton makes a great point -- there were plenty of readers complaining because they didn't think anything happening had consequences. Well, now we got 'em. Not everyone is gonna like 'em.

 

[William Leisner]

No need to get carried away.[...]No suggestion that the situations were proportionate or otherwise comparable was intended.

You made a direct comparison between the two. Of course you intended it. And it's still despicable.

 

[ronny]

I'm sort of annoyed that O'Brien doesn't have much of a part to play in the DS9 relaunch anymore and was sort of hoping to see him on the Titan/Enterprise in the post-Nem books but it wasn't to be.

I miss O'Brien too but that's one of the things I liked about the start of DS9-R, they didn't come up with some lame reason to bring everyone back.

 

[Trent Roman]

Of course you intended it.

And you're inside my head that you know this? As I said upthread, the intent was to counter the idea that faits accomplis were outside of debate. The idea that it was comparing deaths never occured to me until I read Christopher's and your post and realized how my post could be misconstrued as making a direct comparison between the two. So you can accept that no demeaning of anybody's real life tragedies was intended in my post and that I (evidently) choose my analogy poorly, or you can go on believing that I lost all sense of proportion and am now lying in a desperate attempt to backpedal. Either way, no skin off my teeth.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[William Leisner]

The idea that it was comparing deaths never occured to me until I read Christopher's and your post and realized how my post could be misconstrued as making a direct comparison between the two.

Again... you DID make a direct comparison between the two. You took the one thing, you put it right next to the other thing, and you said, "Look at these two things together and consider their similarities." Do I need to pull up the fucking dictionary definition of "comparison" for you?

As for the claim that you forgot the Iraq War was a war, and that you're able to blithely toss out comparisons without it occurring to you that 4000 Americans, several hundred Alliance soldiers, and tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed over there over the past six years... well, if it were me, I'd rather have people believe I was lying and backpedaling.

 

[ATimson]

Again... you DID make a direct comparison between the two. You took the one thing, you put it right next to the other thing, and you said, "Look at these two things together and consider their similarities."

He said to consider "these similarities", specific ones he iterated. That you chose to consider others as well is your own damn problem, not his.

 

[Trent Roman]

Believe what you will, William, since it doesn't seem that anything I say will convince you that I wasn't being callously dismissive of massive loss of life. But for the record, my record of condemnation of this conflict is long and vociferous, as is the fact that I've never failed to call out those who only use the first four thousand in their casualty assesments and leave out the hundreds of thousands of civilians. The point I was trying to make was based uniquely on the notion of a decision made being questioned still after the fact; it was never intended to go any further than that one commonality, nor did it occur to me that it would be carried beyond the narrow aspect I was singling out. If I had thought of it, I assure you I would have searched for a less controversial comparison.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[JD]

Has anyone else noticed that whenever we get into one of these debates (the content of the books, not the Iraq War) it's always the same people saying the same things?

 

[Leaf]

So, Janeway's dead? I got lost around page 7...

A shame if she is. I always thought she would have been a good mystery novel character. Like, she and Harry Kim could be all Holmes and Watson and travel the Federation solving crimes. I'd read that.

 

[DimesDan]

So, Janeway's dead? I got lost around page 7...

Yeah the mass debate here has been a little off putting to wade through, but yes, Janeway is dead, she died towards the end of Before Dishonour, now, she might come back given there is/was a get out clause and the right situation should come along, but until then, SHE. IS. DEAD.

BUT, as it's a book and these things can be non linear, there will probably be stories about her preBD and she will also appear in Full Circle next year as I understand it, it is based over a three year period, TWO of which, Kathy is her normal living self.

And Gentlemen, about the Iraq war comparison, I understood where Trent was coming from even if it was in slight bad taste. And just to slide this thing even more off topic, my views on Iraq are that the "collilision of the willing" went in too soon, they should have waited for it to be either made a NATO or UN mandated "exersise" and flooded the country with troops under the command of, say the French or Germans (or the British as we are pretty apt at occupational forces) which could protect the civilians while rebuilding the country and then, NOT giving all the contracts out to forign busnisess and most probably the insurgance would not have been as bad as it has been, and by now, it would just be a token PK force in the country. Oh and Bush should have paid attention to history, given that the main reason Europe is like it is now, and Japan, is due to post war reconstruction and other such "gifts" from good ol' Uncle Sam.

 

[Brit]

Quick note here for many of the Voyager fans that looked forward to "Full Circle", there will be a great number that will pick this book up, read the last pages, and if Janeway is still dead they will put the book back on the shelf and not pick up another. It is just as simple as that.

Brit

 

[Therin of Andor]

there will be a great number that will pick this book up, read the last pages, and if Janeway is still dead they will put the book back on the shelf and not pick up another.

No doubt many Chewbacca, Superman, Flash and Bobby Ewing fans said similar things.

 

[DimesDan]

there will be a great number that will pick this book up, read the last pages, and if Janeway is still dead they will put the book back on the shelf and not pick up another.

No doubt many Chewbacca, Superman, Flash and Bobby Ewing fans said similar things.

Don't forget Mara Jade Skywalker either, but then again, I thought that was a cop out, I personally thought it would have far better to have killed off the Farmboy instead - although this is not really the place to discuss such things.

 

[Christopher]

And just to slide this thing even more off topic, my views on Iraq are that the "collilision of the willing" went in too soon

You mean "coalition of the willing," but "collision of the willing" sounds pretty funny.

Quick note here for many of the Voyager fans that looked forward to "Full Circle", there will be a great number that will pick this book up, read the last pages, and if Janeway is still dead they will put the book back on the shelf and not pick up another. It is just as simple as that.

Unless they're intrigued by what else is going on in those last pages. And if they're too narrow-minded to read the whole book or to care about anything other than whether one character in an ensemble cast survived, then they're only hurting themselves.

 

[DimesDan]

And just to slide this thing even more off topic, my views on Iraq are that the "collilision of the willing" went in too soon

You mean "coalition of the willing," but "collision of the willing" sounds pretty funny.

Note to self: Must remember to use the right words

 

[Therin of Andor]

And if they're too narrow-minded to read the whole book or to care about anything other than whether one character in an ensemble cast survived...

And - who knows? - maybe Janeway-as-Q will be even more interesting than Janeway as Captain (VOY) or Janeway as Admiral (NEM; "A Time...", etc).

 

[LightningStorm]

Has anyone else noticed that whenever we get into one of these debates (the content of the books, not the Iraq War) it's always the same people saying the same things?

Yes, and it's becoming quite ridiculous. (Even though I'm one of those which you speak of.)

I always thought she would have been a good mystery novel character. Like, she and Harry Kim could be all Holmes and Watson and travel the Federation solving crimes. I'd read that.

lol! As silly as that sounds in a Star Trek context, I actually agree that would make for some quite interesting reading and I'd read that too.

 

[ClayinCA]

Quick note here for many of the Voyager fans that looked forward to "Full Circle", there will be a great number that will pick this book up, read the last pages, and if Janeway is still dead they will put the book back on the shelf and not pick up another. It is just as simple as that.

Yeah, except it's not. For every one of those "great number" that put the book back down because Janeway is dead, you'll have those who buy it because they're just plain curious to see what happens next, those who buy it to see if they'll bring her back, those who buy it because they'll buy anything with the words Star Trek on the front, and those who'll buy it because they never bloody liked Janeway in the first place and finally feel free to pick up a Voyager book.