Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction?
- Thread starter TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME
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Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
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no coke, pepsi
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no coke, pepsi
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
"The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible"
How many people actually know it isn't at this point? Archer, T'Pol and crew, who are ancient by now. The current Enterprise crew as well as Spock Prime, Pike and some Starfleet higher-ups.
IIRC, it's not until "The Naked Now" that anyone time travelled without help from the future, and that hasn't happened yet (if it will at all). So very, very few people really knows it can be done.
"The Vulcan Science Directorate has determined that time travel is impossible"
How many people actually know it isn't at this point? Archer, T'Pol and crew, who are ancient by now. The current Enterprise crew as well as Spock Prime, Pike and some Starfleet higher-ups.
IIRC, it's not until "The Naked Now" that anyone time travelled without help from the future, and that hasn't happened yet (if it will at all). So very, very few people really knows it can be done.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Kinda. Apart from Spock and the Narada who came back and proved the point and basically told everyone, so I'm not sure that works, but whatevs. Maybe nobody knows despite that.... somehow.
(I also wouldn't be surprised to find that NuTrek just goes ahead and ditches Archer and the rest, since there are a minimal amount of people to annoy by doing so.)
Kinda. Apart from Spock and the Narada who came back and proved the point and basically told everyone, so I'm not sure that works, but whatevs. Maybe nobody knows despite that.... somehow.
(I also wouldn't be surprised to find that NuTrek just goes ahead and ditches Archer and the rest, since there are a minimal amount of people to annoy by doing so.)
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Archer is already in NuTrek.
And in a few years something time travelly will happen to Our NuHeroes.
People working on fringe science suspect now that time travel is possible, I am sure this idea will only grow as a possibility as the galaxy fills up with weirdness.
Archer is already in NuTrek.
And in a few years something time travelly will happen to Our NuHeroes.
People working on fringe science suspect now that time travel is possible, I am sure this idea will only grow as a possibility as the galaxy fills up with weirdness.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Count me as someone who likes Sybok too. Laurence Luckinbill was bringing it in that movie, when it seemed like everyone else was sleepwalking.
Count me as someone who likes Sybok too. Laurence Luckinbill was bringing it in that movie, when it seemed like everyone else was sleepwalking.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
^I also think Sybok is excellent, both as a character himself and what he adds to Spock and Sarek's backstories (i.e. explaining why Sarek was so absolutely intent that Spock be Vulcan, after his last son was exiled for rejecting the Vulcan way)
(God knows how Starfleet's PR department explained the Vengeance crash to the masses
)
^I also think Sybok is excellent, both as a character himself and what he adds to Spock and Sarek's backstories (i.e. explaining why Sarek was so absolutely intent that Spock be Vulcan, after his last son was exiled for rejecting the Vulcan way)
Depends how much is public knowledge after ST'09. I guess it's totally up in the air as to whether the massive ship destroyed Vulcan and attacked Earth is known to be from the future.
(God knows how Starfleet's PR department explained the Vengeance crash to the masses
)As teacake pointed out, Archer got a namedrop in '09 (he exiled Scotty) and Marcus had a model of the Enterprise Enterprise on his Desk of Awesome Fanwank.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
This is not like "City on the Edge of Forever" or those types of time travel stories. The way they set it up in ST09, there is nothing to "correct." This is an entirely new timeline created by the prime one at the point the Narada appeared. The prime universe reality goes chugging on unaffected except for the loss of Spock and the Narada's crew.
This is a new reality. Not a changed one. The things that happen in it are the things that are supposed to happen. Attempts to change it would actually be altering their reality, not restoring it.
This is not like "City on the Edge of Forever" or those types of time travel stories. The way they set it up in ST09, there is nothing to "correct." This is an entirely new timeline created by the prime one at the point the Narada appeared. The prime universe reality goes chugging on unaffected except for the loss of Spock and the Narada's crew.
This is a new reality. Not a changed one. The things that happen in it are the things that are supposed to happen. Attempts to change it would actually be altering their reality, not restoring it.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
And I gotta say, I love it. It was a stroke of brilliance. First, it actually makes more sense within many real time travel theories (not that that matters a lot, this is fiction after all, but it does). Second, it makes what happens in this universe, like the loss of Vulcan, far more poignant. It's life. It's real. It ain't changing.
And I gotta say, I love it. It was a stroke of brilliance. First, it actually makes more sense within many real time travel theories (not that that matters a lot, this is fiction after all, but it does). Second, it makes what happens in this universe, like the loss of Vulcan, far more poignant. It's life. It's real. It ain't changing.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
The real world explanation is that the JJverse is set up just how they want it. The loss of Vulcan and presence of Romulus is meant to be a major defining difference. They are unlikely to change that.
In story, taking the view that different time streams split and rejoin as the ripples from changes dissapate, both timelines being short a different planet is a biggie, and I wouldn't expect the two to recombine any time soon, so unless someone 'tampers' the status quo remains.
I can, however, see a time in the middle distance, when the current creative team have moved on, and maybe even when the franchise is bck on TV, that someone will think that recombining the various strands of the franchise is a great idea.
I could imagine a 25th century show that did just that...
The real world explanation is that the JJverse is set up just how they want it. The loss of Vulcan and presence of Romulus is meant to be a major defining difference. They are unlikely to change that.
In story, taking the view that different time streams split and rejoin as the ripples from changes dissapate, both timelines being short a different planet is a biggie, and I wouldn't expect the two to recombine any time soon, so unless someone 'tampers' the status quo remains.
I can, however, see a time in the middle distance, when the current creative team have moved on, and maybe even when the franchise is bck on TV, that someone will think that recombining the various strands of the franchise is a great idea.
I could imagine a 25th century show that did just that...
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
There is effectively no difference between this universe and the one changed by McCoy in City. The only difference lies in the motivations of the characters. Kirk and Spock were motivated to restore things because they were stranded. And not just that, but that kind of thinking permeates the old Trek.
For whatever reason, Spock just didn't desire to restore it, but that's not to say it can't be restored. And that signifies one of the biggest changes of this reboot, that he simply doesn't care.
There is effectively no difference between this universe and the one changed by McCoy in City. The only difference lies in the motivations of the characters. Kirk and Spock were motivated to restore things because they were stranded. And not just that, but that kind of thinking permeates the old Trek.
For whatever reason, Spock just didn't desire to restore it, but that's not to say it can't be restored. And that signifies one of the biggest changes of this reboot, that he simply doesn't care.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
It's exactly the same scenario as in "The City On The Edge Of Forever"! Kirk and Spock saw an entirely new timeline on Spock's tricorder in that episode, and that new timeline would have happend if they hadn't restored the original timeline. The Narada essentially does the same as Bones did, jumping back in time and messing things up. So why can't the original timeline be restored?
And who knows, maybe Spock Prime is already working on a plan to get things straight ... maybe it is him who is going to be the "villain" in the next movie!
It's exactly the same scenario as in "The City On The Edge Of Forever"! Kirk and Spock saw an entirely new timeline on Spock's tricorder in that episode, and that new timeline would have happend if they hadn't restored the original timeline. The Narada essentially does the same as Bones did, jumping back in time and messing things up. So why can't the original timeline be restored?
And who knows, maybe Spock Prime is already working on a plan to get things straight ... maybe it is him who is going to be the "villain" in the next movie!
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
In "City", what happened wasn't supposed to happen. The Guardian is some type of portal that McCoy used to travel within his timeline and alter its future, not create a new timeline. Basically the same thing happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise". The "natural" unfolding of the timeline was altered. A new one wasn't created. Everything happened "in house," without affecting or creating other timelines.
It could be possible within the new universe for Spock (or someone) to go back and prevent the Narada from destroying Vulcan, but that isn't setting anything back to "normal."
Not doing that has nothing to do with Spock not caring, and everything to do with playing God. I'm sure Picard and the surviving Romulans wish they could go back in time and see to it that Spock Prime succeeds in saving Romulus. Same thing. They would be playing God in their own timeline. And God only knows how that would affect the new universe. Does it exist because of what happened the first time, or go away because the other timeline was altered so the event that started it didn't happen.
Before my head explodes thinking about this, a couple of other things:
If Spock could even somehow stop the Narada from ever appearing at all, he would end his universe, not reset anything.
The thing is, there is no way he could stop Nero from appearing because what causes him to appear back in time was an event in another universe that existed before Spock's.
Certainly within the logic of time travel in "City" or "Yesterday's Enterprise", Spock could go back and stop Nero the moment he appears. He could go back to prevent Vulcan from being destroyed. But in both cases, the new universe still exists. Nothing is reset because there's nothing to reset. He changed its history. Again, he'd be playing God, not making anything right.
In "City", what happened wasn't supposed to happen. The Guardian is some type of portal that McCoy used to travel within his timeline and alter its future, not create a new timeline. Basically the same thing happened in "Yesterday's Enterprise". The "natural" unfolding of the timeline was altered. A new one wasn't created. Everything happened "in house," without affecting or creating other timelines.
It could be possible within the new universe for Spock (or someone) to go back and prevent the Narada from destroying Vulcan, but that isn't setting anything back to "normal."
Not doing that has nothing to do with Spock not caring, and everything to do with playing God. I'm sure Picard and the surviving Romulans wish they could go back in time and see to it that Spock Prime succeeds in saving Romulus. Same thing. They would be playing God in their own timeline. And God only knows how that would affect the new universe. Does it exist because of what happened the first time, or go away because the other timeline was altered so the event that started it didn't happen.
Before my head explodes thinking about this, a couple of other things:
If Spock could even somehow stop the Narada from ever appearing at all, he would end his universe, not reset anything.
The thing is, there is no way he could stop Nero from appearing because what causes him to appear back in time was an event in another universe that existed before Spock's.
Certainly within the logic of time travel in "City" or "Yesterday's Enterprise", Spock could go back and stop Nero the moment he appears. He could go back to prevent Vulcan from being destroyed. But in both cases, the new universe still exists. Nothing is reset because there's nothing to reset. He changed its history. Again, he'd be playing God, not making anything right.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Trek XI wasn't supposed to happen either!
Trek XI wasn't supposed to happen either!
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Honestly, any situation in which time travel occurs could be one in which the characters jump timelines, regardless of how identical the timeline at the end appears to the one at the beginning.
"Parallels" even introduced a way of checking such things. Quantum signatures. Spock Prime's quantum signature would doubtless indicate that he "belonged" to the Primeverse. Since we've never seen such a confirmation done in any other scenario where time travel occurred, we can't definitively say that anyone ended up back in the timeline they were in before the jump occurred. It's entirely possible they're merely in a timeline that very closely resembles their timeline of origin.
Honestly, any situation in which time travel occurs could be one in which the characters jump timelines, regardless of how identical the timeline at the end appears to the one at the beginning.
"Parallels" even introduced a way of checking such things. Quantum signatures. Spock Prime's quantum signature would doubtless indicate that he "belonged" to the Primeverse. Since we've never seen such a confirmation done in any other scenario where time travel occurred, we can't definitively say that anyone ended up back in the timeline they were in before the jump occurred. It's entirely possible they're merely in a timeline that very closely resembles their timeline of origin.
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
"The timeline is changed, things are worse than ever, we need to bring it back to the way it was."
"Nah. This timeline has been going on 20+ years, I think I'll just play it safe and leave it as it is."
"The timeline is changed, things are worse than ever, we need to bring it back to the way it was."
"Nah. This timeline has been going on 20+ years, I think I'll just play it safe and leave it as it is."
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
When McCoy jumped back into time, the timeline they all lived in ceased to exist as it was (something about being in the presence of the Guardian must've kept Kirk and the landing party from being affected and keeping their memories that things weren't the same).
When the Narada (and Spock) went back in time, the timeline they left continued to exist. No alternate future within their original timeline presented itself as a result of their time travel. (At least in the comic book.) Instead, they just disappeared in their time and created the entirely new timeline we see. It is the 25th century in their old universe, and time goes on.
Maybe one can go back within the ST09 timeline and change things like Kirk and Spock did in "City", but there is absolutely nothing to change to make anything "right."
Further, this universe was created by events in another universe. So, Spock would have to go to Picard's time in another universe, and if he did stop Nero and Spock there, maybe it would save Romulus in that universe, but it would probably mean his own universe would cease to exist, because that means it was never created. Hell, he may disappear. At best, he'd be stranded in the 25th century of that other universe. Why would Spock do that?
When McCoy jumped back into time, the timeline they all lived in ceased to exist as it was (something about being in the presence of the Guardian must've kept Kirk and the landing party from being affected and keeping their memories that things weren't the same).
When the Narada (and Spock) went back in time, the timeline they left continued to exist. No alternate future within their original timeline presented itself as a result of their time travel. (At least in the comic book.) Instead, they just disappeared in their time and created the entirely new timeline we see. It is the 25th century in their old universe, and time goes on.
Maybe one can go back within the ST09 timeline and change things like Kirk and Spock did in "City", but there is absolutely nothing to change to make anything "right."
Further, this universe was created by events in another universe. So, Spock would have to go to Picard's time in another universe, and if he did stop Nero and Spock there, maybe it would save Romulus in that universe, but it would probably mean his own universe would cease to exist, because that means it was never created. Hell, he may disappear. At best, he'd be stranded in the 25th century of that other universe. Why would Spock do that?
Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction
Again, this was resetting ONE universe that went off kilter. Morally, philosophically, logically, whatever, "correcting" the destiny of a perverted universe when it's found out to be that way must be OK in the Trek world.
In ST09, there are TWO SEPARATE universes: the one Spock and Nero came from, and the new one created by Nero. As I said above, in this context, Spock Prime going back in time to save Vulcan would be no different than Picard deciding to go back in time and save Romulus in the original universe. Would Picard do that? No. It doesn't set anything right. It changes the destiny of the universe to suit Picard. So, why should Spock Prime think he should change the destiny of his new universe? What's being set right?
"The timeline is changed, things are worse than ever, we need to bring it back to the way it was."
"Nah. This timeline has been going on 20+ years, I think I'll just play it safe and leave it as it is."
Again, this was resetting ONE universe that went off kilter. Morally, philosophically, logically, whatever, "correcting" the destiny of a perverted universe when it's found out to be that way must be OK in the Trek world.
In ST09, there are TWO SEPARATE universes: the one Spock and Nero came from, and the new one created by Nero. As I said above, in this context, Spock Prime going back in time to save Vulcan would be no different than Picard deciding to go back in time and save Romulus in the original universe. Would Picard do that? No. It doesn't set anything right. It changes the destiny of the universe to suit Picard. So, why should Spock Prime think he should change the destiny of his new universe? What's being set right?
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