Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction?

[BigJake]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

It's true that it's bound to jar a bit when you've seen Trek crews battle to "restore" the "real" timeline so many times in so many stories. (That's probably why you find yourself shouting in all-caps, Franklin. ) As that element of things goes, you kind of just have to either accept that that's ceased to matter (basically Because of Reasons) or not.

 

[Kemaiku]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Nope, it's about time those pointy eared idiots got a good kick in their complacency.

 

[BigJake]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Personally -- though I'm not exactly in favour of "resetting" as Franklin terms it -- the argument that the Alternate Universe is "correct" and therefore Vulcan's destruction should be immutable doesn't really hold water for me; I called it a cop-out earlier on account of it basically amounts to invoking God's Plan (or less charmingly, implying the Vulcans deserved it). The alternate universe is going to stay alternate no matter what happens to Vulcan anyway, since its POD is decades earlier. So it's a separate question. You can have stories about "saving" Vulcan -- either successfully doing so, or failing to do so and being reminded that "it was Destiny" or something if you really must -- without its making a point about "which universe is correct." (Yes, it mixes metaphors / models of time travel, but that's already happened anyway.)

 

[Shat Happens]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

> If everyone were as fatalistic in all the universes as you have Kirk above, every universe would soon disappear.

YEt that's what Orci an his gang sold Spock would do.

Like Spock, with all his legendary character and resourcefulness, would sit in his ass and let Vulcan and Romulus and Earth (hadn't young Kirk stopped Nero) be and stay destroyed.

Our heroes would do something.

 

[Kemaiku]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

It's a movie, things blow up, live with it.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Personally -- though I'm not exactly in favour of "resetting" as Franklin terms it -- the argument that the Alternate Universe is "correct" and therefore Vulcan's destruction should be immutable doesn't really hold water for me; I called it a cop-out earlier on account of it basically amounts to invoking God's Plan (or less charmingly, implying the Vulcans deserved it). The alternate universe is going to stay alternate no matter what happens to Vulcan anyway, since its POD is decades earlier. So it's a separate question. You can have stories about "saving" Vulcan -- either successfully doing so, or failing to do so and being reminded that "it was Destiny" or something if you really must -- without its making a point about "which universe is correct." (Yes, it mixes metaphors / models of time travel, but that's already happened anyway.)

> If everyone were as fatalistic in all the universes as you have Kirk above, every universe would soon disappear.

YEt that's what Orci an his gang sold Spock would do.

Like Spock, with all his legendary character and resourcefulness, would sit in his ass and let Vulcan and Romulus and Earth (hadn't young Kirk stopped Nero) be and stay destroyed.

Our heroes would do something.

I think both of you (and a bunch of others) are still in denial that Vulcan is gone.

 

[BigJake]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

^ Vulcan can be as gone as it likes. I just don't see any impediment to stories about it along the lines of the idea that started the thread and I don't see why you do. (Like, do you think you're "defending" nuTrek from the "criticism" that Vulcan is gone? As apparently Chemahkuu thinks they're doing? Because I don't think that was teacake's point.)

 

[Franklin]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

I did a quick check, and "Assignment Earth" and TVH were the only TOS stories where Kirk and crew deliberately attempted time travel in their starship. They traveled from the past back to their time in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but they were thrown into the past by accident. In "City", they used the Guardian. That's also the only TOS reset episode I'm aware of off the top of my head. There were only two other episodes with time travel: "The Nake Time" (just three days) and "All Our Yesterdays". "City" was the only real reset.

Even in TNG, there were only about ten time travel episodes over seven seasons, plus FC, and I think only a couple of those were "reset" type episodes.

VOY was the series that kept pushing the reset button. Find Janeway in the new universe, she'll have no problem going back to save Vulcan.

I guess where things got sidetracked is in discussing whether Spock Prime, or even Spock should attempt to go back and save Vulcan. Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen. They are not "healing" a timeline, they are destroying one because they prefer the other. A subtle but important difference that should make us all glad this can't happen in reality.

 

[Ovation]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

I did a quick check, and "Assignment Earth" and TVH were the only TOS stories where Kirk and crew deliberately attempted time travel in their starship. They traveled from the past back to their time in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but they were thrown into the past by accident. In "City", they used the Guardian. That's also the only TOS reset episode I'm aware of off the top of my head. There were only two other episodes with time travel: "The Nake Time" (just three days) and "All Our Yesterdays". "City" was the only real reset.

Even in TNG, there were only about ten time travel episodes over seven seasons, plus FC, and I think only a couple of those were "reset" type episodes.

VOY was the series that kept pushing the reset button. Find Janeway in the new universe, she'll have no problem going back to save Vulcan.

I guess where things got sidetracked is in discussing whether Spock Prime, or even Spock should attempt to go back and save Vulcan. Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen. They are not "healing" a timeline, they are destroying one because they prefer the other. A subtle but important difference that should make us all glad this can't happen in reality.

+1000

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.

Wrong.

 

[BigJake]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]

 

[Franklin]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]

Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

What derailed me in the thread is the argument some were making that Spock Prime, Spock, and Kirk are acting out of character for not at least trying to go back in time and save Vulcan.

 

[BigJake]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

And a noble quest that would be.

 

[Shat Happens]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

And a noble quest that would be.

Better luck to you than the guy from Robocop that tried that in Voyager and got Crazy-Janeway'd.

 

[Kevman7987]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

And a noble quest that would be.

Better luck to you than the guy from Robocop that tried that in Voyager and got Crazy-Janeway'd.

Getting Janeway'd is a heck of a lot better than living with Topher Grace in the 1970's.

 

[Set Harth]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Hell, if there's no "right" or "wrong" timeline, if I could, I'd just keep going back in time and changing things until I finally ended up in the timeline where I'm happily married to Scarlett Johansson.

And a noble quest that would be.

"If this timeline is wrong... I don't wanna be right!"

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]

The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Rereading teacake's OP, teacake is speaking about some Vulcan or Vulcans obsessing with the idea of going back in time to save the planet. That is a separate issue, and I've said I think that in Trek there's time travel of the type the Spock and Nero experience, and time travel within a timeline. I guess my point would be that any Vulcans who wanted to attempt this they could, but within temporal ethics, it would be wrong because they are not trying to prevent an event that was not supposed to happen.

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]

The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.

If the Vulcans tried that and ended up in the other timeline, would that make them illegal aliens?

 

[Poltargyst]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

The only way to enjoy ST09 is thinking of it as a reboot with a bad excused cameo from Nimoy in it.

Wrong.

I am perfectly happy watching NuTrek as an alternate dimension to the original. In fact, I prefer it. This way they can do whatever they want to, change whatever they want, and it won't piss me off because I know the other timeline is still there just the way it should be.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Will a "Hero" try and go back in time and fix Vulcan's Destruction

Right. That's what I'm talking about.

And yours would be a perfectly arguable view*. Just as the Vulcan time-renegades would have an arguable case in their own right. (It could get really interesting when you get into the thickets of whether argument-from-destiny is happening and whether that's logical. ) It's one of those interesting ethical dilemmas where your characters and your audience could come down with validity on either side.

[* Kind of hard to square, mind you, with the question of whether there's a "right" or "wrong" version of a timeline. If there is no "right" version of a timeline, it's hard to see how "fixing" Vulcan's destruction would be ethically wrong. But it's an interesting question.]

The thing is this isn't the existing Vulcan timeline altered, it's an alternative timeline. So the renegade Vulcans could leave this one just as it was and try and jump timelines back to the one with Vulcan intact. Of course the time police would want to prevent this as it's altering both timelines to remove people from one and insert them in another. Though if this caused no major changes they might not expend their timecop manpower on it.

If the Vulcans tried that and ended up in the other timeline, would that make them illegal aliens?

They'd have to take new identities since they already exist there. OR kill their original selves.