Why'd we always blame the writer?

[Starkers]

It occurs to me that, with regards the new series, people are always quick to blame the writer if an episode's shit, best evidenced by comments around Matt Graham in another thread, but see also Helen Raynor and others.

Now whilst Fear Her is bad (so bad that I only ever watched it the once) and while the Dalek Manhatten 2 parter isn't great, why do we hang our dissapointment at the writer's door?

Maybe if Fear Her had been better directed or had more talented guest actors it might have been better?

I mean Blink is fantastic, but that isn't just down to Moffat's script is it? Great direction, a wonderful score by Gold, fantasticly realised Angels, a great lead in Mulligan and a very solid supporting cast help make it great.

I wasn't overly keen on Amy's Choice, but that was less about the story than the flat, ponderous direction of the episode.

I'm not saying the writer isn't often to blame, you can only polish a turd so much after all, and I doubt, for example, that any combination of effects/direction/music can help with something like "And then the Doctor turns into Dobby from Harry Potter." but still...

Are we too quick to lay blame with the writer? (and the reverse is also true, are we too quick to laud the writer and sometimes forget that the whole production crew deserve some credit as well?)

 

[Australis]

I did blame Raynor for Daleks in Spats originally, but later I learned it was RTD's idea to include pigmen, which is one of the worst parts, IMO. Why? Really, why? She redeemed herself with uhhhh <runs off to Google...><back...> the Sontaran two parter. She was also the script editor for the Library 2parter and Midnight.

It's easier to blame the writer if the story seems hinky because it's his words. But sometimes when the wheels fall off, it's how the words are interpreted, by producers and directors, that causes the problems. Everyone wants to pu their own spin on things.

 

[The]

It occurs to me that, with regards the new series, people are always quick to blame the writer if an episode's shit, best evidenced by comments around Matt Graham in another thread, but see also Helen Raynor and others.

Now whilst Fear Her is bad (so bad that I only ever watched it the once) and while the Dalek Manhatten 2 parter isn't great, why do we hang our dissapointment at the writer's door?

Maybe if Fear Her had been better directed or had more talented guest actors it might have been better?

I mean Blink is fantastic, but that isn't just down to Moffat's script is it? Great direction, a wonderful score by Gold, fantasticly realised Angels, a great lead in Mulligan and a very solid supporting cast help make it great.

I wasn't overly keen on Amy's Choice, but that was less about the story than the flat, ponderous direction of the episode.

I'm not saying the writer isn't often to blame, you can only polish a turd so much after all, and I doubt, for example, that any combination of effects/direction/music can help with something like "And then the Doctor turns into Dobby from Harry Potter." but still...

Are we too quick to lay blame with the writer? (and the reverse is also true, are we too quick to laud the writer and sometimes forget that the whole production crew deserve some credit as well?)

That's why I always blame RTD (first) and THEN the writer.

No, really, I think by the time we got to the Sontaran two-parter it was obvious Helen Raynor is not cut out to write for Doctor Who. Either that, or Russel just loves to urinate over her scripts the most. She has yet to write anything for Who worth the time I invested watching.

Now, that could just be down to how incredibly grating Tennant is in both episodes. It was that era where the wheels had come off the show, and he was just flapping around, gurning and being shouty. By that time, I doubt even Moffat could have saved the show. God knows, Blink's main benefit is its lack of Tennant. And, contrary to the majority, I thought the Library two-parter was subpar, at best. At no time did I think Tennant knew what he was doing in that episode. Just lots of staring and shouting again.

So, see? It's FAR easier to blame the actor playing The Doctor (the guy who has to interpret the story on screen), and quite a bit more accurate. But, in the end, it's not all Tennant's fault. There's also Russel T. Davies and his inability to write Who in a manner that doesn't constantly apologize for it...

 

[The]

And yes, Fear Her was all RTD...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

No, really, I think by the time we got to the Sontaran two-parter it was obvious Helen Raynor is not cut out to write for Doctor Who. Either that, or Russel just loves to urinate over her scripts the most. She has yet to write anything for Who worth the time I invested watching.

I thought her Torchwood story, "Ghost Machine," was solid. I was "meh" on the Sontaran story.

 

[23skidoo]

Are we too quick to lay blame with the writer? (and the reverse is also true, are we too quick to laud the writer and sometimes forget that the whole production crew deserve some credit as well?)

Exactly. People love to piss all over RTD (without whom Doctor Who would have been reimagined as some American action-adventure series - bet on that) forgetting that RTD is directly responsible for not just the missteps but also if it weren't for him there would have been no Blink, Girl in the Fireplace, Dalek, Unquiet Dead - basically name any of the excellent and lauded episodes this series produced between 2005 and 2009 and RTD is directly responsible for them. He could have killed Blink. He could have rewritten the script top to bottom, but he says he rarely touched Moffat's stuff, which showed wisdom. RTD killed plans for Rose Tyler - Earth Defense, even after the BBC had commissioned it as a bank holiday special. So to play with your original point slightly, people seem so quick to assume everything RTD did was shit, without doing the research.

As for Matthew Graham, I just knew people would go schizoid over the fact he's doing a two-parter, simply because of Fear Her, ignoring the fact he CREATED LIFE ON MARS, as well as Ashes to Ashes, two very acclaimed series. That's like people dismissing Richard Curtis, the storied creator of Blackadder and Four Weddings & a Funeral, and his episode Vincent and the Doctor (for my money the best episode of 2010) based on the fact his movie Pirate Radio stunk up the room.

God knows Robert Holmes, who is generally considered the most beloved and respected writer of the classic Doctor Who series, had some bad scripts during his time with the show. And everyone loves Terence Dicks ... now, but back in the 1970s he was very much in the RTD chair with some of his scripts, which were looked upon as crap in the day, and today are seen as classics, with more than a few people bemoaning the fact RTD didn't copy T.D. more in his style of writing.

Personally, I ignore the writing credit. I could care less. I take each story as it comes and if it works, great, and if it doesn't, there'll be another next week. I'll make exception if the writer is someone unusual, like Curtis, or Neil Gaiman. Oh, and if you think people are over-critical of the scripts now, that Gaiman episode had better end up being Blink 2.0 or else blood will run in the forums.

Alex

 

[Bones2]

Are we too quick to lay blame with the writer? (and the reverse is also true, are we too quick to laud the writer and sometimes forget that the whole production crew deserve some credit as well?)

He could have killed Blink. He could have rewritten the script top to bottom, but he says he rarely touched Moffat's stuff, which showed wisdom.

I do believe the main reason RTD wouldn't touch a Moffat script was Moffat's agent. But really though, are you suggesting we give RTD credit for not going out of his way to fuck things up?

I think we blame the writer because the direction and production on new Who is usually brilliant. Take The Idiot's Lantern for example. It's bloody awful rubbish. But pretty much everything wrong with it is down to the writing, story, dialogue, and characterisation. Even so, The prodution perfectly evokes the 50s, and Euros Lyn manages to wring out some creepy moments early on with the facelessers. Similar story for a lot of new Who. As for RTD being to blame for giving out strict briefs on a story, yeah. What an incompetent man.

 

[StCoop]

And yes, Fear Her was all RTD...

I think you'll find that Fear Her was one of the only scripts outside of Moffat's that didn't have a single line written by RTD.

Beyond a general suggestion of the plot it was entirely Matthew Graham's work.

 

[The]

Oh really? Source? Or was that pulled from RTD's Marketing Biography?

 

[sidious618]

I do believe the main reason RTD wouldn't touch a Moffat script was Moffat's agent. But really though, are you suggesting we give RTD credit for not going out of his way to fuck things up?

Oh, c'mon, that's ridiculous. I know you don't like RTD but it doesn't mean you have to slam him on everything, does it?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Oh really? Source? Or was that pulled from RTD's Marketing Biography?

It's from The Writer's Tale. Says RTD on page 150 of the paperback edition: "Rewriting? I write the final draft of almost all scripts -- except Steven Moffat's, Matthew Graham's, Chris Chibnall's, and Stephen Greenhorn's -- and that draft becomes the Shooting Script." It's the only time RTD mentions Graham in the book.

I was under the impression that "Fear Her" was a last-minute script, commissioned when something else fell through, which would give a reason why it wasn't rewritten stem-to-stern by RTD -- there simply wasn't the time to rewrite it, and he trusted in Graham's credentials enough to let him go.

 

[The]

Oh really? Source? Or was that pulled from RTD's Marketing Biography?

It's from The Writer's Tale.

That's what I was referring to...

Says RTD on page 150 of the paperback edition: "Rewriting? I write the final draft of almost all scripts -- except Steven Moffat's, Matthew Graham's, Chris Chibnall's, and Stephen Greenhorn's -- and that draft becomes the Shooting Script." It's the only time RTD mentions Graham in the book.

I was under the impression that "Fear Her" was a last-minute script, commissioned when something else fell through, which would give a reason why it wasn't rewritten stem-to-stern by RTD -- there simply wasn't the time to rewrite it, and he trusted in Graham's credentials enough to let him go.

Fair enough. Then that piece of shit is all Graham's fault. I retract my initial assertion. But, given its stench, you can understand the ease of the mistake.

 

[Bones2]

I do believe the main reason RTD wouldn't touch a Moffat script was Moffat's agent. But really though, are you suggesting we give RTD credit for not going out of his way to fuck things up?

Oh, c'mon, that's ridiculous. I know you don't like RTD but it doesn't mean you have to slam him on everything, does it?

I wasn't slamming him, I was saying I don't think he deserves credit for not going out of his way to fuck things up.

 

[The Wormhole]

If indeed Doctor Who fans are "always blaming the writer" for episodes they don't like, then I interpret that as a good thing. It means Doctor Who fans are actually taking the time to find out who wrote the episode instead of blaming everything they don't like about Doctor Who on one person.

Just like Star Trek fans and their insane hatred of Brannon Braga, to the extent that he gets blamed for things he had no involvement in. Like Insurrection and Nemesis, two movies he had nothing to do with, and yet he still gets blamed for.

 

[Captain Crow]

(without whom Doctor Who would have been reimagined as some American action-adventure series - bet on that)

Instead he gave us Doctor Who reimagined as EastEnders style twaddle with the Doctor as a pissed off binman then a girning whiney emo git. He also gave us one of the worst companions ever in the history of Doctor Who. That horse toothed clingy over possessive wonder chav who won't go away Rose.

 

[Starkers]

I suppose I should've known better than to expect this to not turn into an RTD is teh blame for everything thread.

The mindset of people who hate him to such an extent that he's responsible for every bad thing that happens (even when proven he wasn't involved) yet somehow every good thing that happens is in spite of him is just bullshit of the highest order.

People who've been on this forum a while know damn well I'm no great fan of RTD but Christ you can't claim every little thing he ever did was wrong? It's pathetic and frankly I've had it with this crap. Is it too much to ask to have an actual discussion without Bones and The (and now someone new, wow Billie was horse faced, bet you on the other hand are a svelte super model of a man/woman) chiming in talking about RTD with so much hate you'd imagine they were Khan and Russell abandoned them on Ceti Alpha V and never bothered to check on their progress...

I'd say people were acting like children but frankly I know kids with better manners.

 

[The]

It's pathetic and frankly I've had it with this crap. Is it too much to ask to have an actual discussion without Bones and The (and now someone new, wow Billie was horse faced, bet you on the other hand are a svelte super model of a man/woman) chiming in talking about RTD with so much hate you'd imagine they were Khan and Russell abandoned them on Ceti Alpha V and never bothered to check on their progress...

I'd say people were acting like children but frankly I know kids with better manners.

Apologies Starkers. I misunderstood the thread, then. I thought we were talking about writers on Doctor Who. Since RTD has been the main writer for the last five years, you can understand how I misunderstood and thought it was okay to discuss him.

You will also find when presented with my error, I conceded that RTD had nothing to do with Fear Her.

Again, sorry to upset you man. I like you, so this genuinely bothers me. I'll definitely keep out of the thread now. Sorry.

 

[Shatnertage]

... chiming in talking about RTD with so much hate you'd imagine they were Khan and Russell abandoned them on Ceti Alpha V and never bothered to check on their progress...

"ADMIRAL Davies? Showrunner for DOCTOR WHO?"



This is something that shows up a lot around here, for a lot of the shows. I think some of it comes down to people thinking they could do a better job. It's really no different from sports fans demanding the coach be fired after a loss. And people like to slag the producers and network executives for being uncreative, soul-crushing hacks, when they've actually got no idea of how television production works.

I can't say that I uncritically love everyone that comes on my TV--I endured the specials last year, rather than really enjoying them--but I can't get too angry with the people who make the show, because they're doing a way better job than I probably could.

And captaincrow gets an honorable mention for the best string of previously-obscure-to-me British slang:

a pissed off binman then a girning whiney emo git.

binman = ? garbage man?
girning = ?
git = idiot?

 

[Captain Crow]

Sorry Starkers, I didn't mean to offended you.

I don't hate RTD or blame for everything that went wrong or hate every thing he did. Just like I don't blame JNT for every thing that went wrong and everything he did during his tenure. I'm sorry that my opinion offend you. I know he's done some good things but, he's done some bad or at least questionable things too.

Both Doctors Nine and Ten as well as Rose are RTD's creations. They were portrayed the way he wanted them to be. Nine had a chip on his shoulder, Ten would either be bouncing off the walls and/or be mopey uttering "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry" in every episode, and Rose was a fan-fic style companion who wanted to "be with" the Doctor. RTD is also the one who injected soap opera elements for faux emotions which often left the actual story on the sideline. Since those elements were his doing he get's the blame for those when they don't work. Just as Moffat gets the blame for his scripts and some of the stuff he introduced in series 5 that didn't quite work. Just like some of the other writers get blame for writing so-so stories. As well as the other departments who work on the show who get blamed for doing a poor job. I don't blame RTD for everything. Saying it's all his fault that some of the episodes are kind of "meh" is just plain foolish.

(and now someone new, wow Billie was horse faced, bet you on the other hand are a svelte super model of a man/woman) .

I'm not a super model. I'm somewhat homely looking actually. Nothing wrong with not looking like a super model. In fact I don't think most super models are that attractive anyway. They look like creepy anorexic bobbleheads.

The horse teeth thing was due to being in bad mood, being half-asleep while not being able to fall asleep, and looking at this picture.

Nothing wrong with having horse teeth. On the right person they can be kind of cute.


Oh, and the other part of the description I made about Rose in my other post came from two episodes "New Earth" (said by Cassandra) and "Journey's End" (said by Davros) both of which RTD wrote.


Again, sorry for offending you Starkers.

 

[Bones2]

(without whom Doctor Who would have been reimagined as some American action-adventure series - bet on that)

Instead he gave us Doctor Who reimagined as EastEnders style twaddle with the Doctor as a pissed off binman then a girning whiney emo git. He also gave us one of the worst companions ever in the history of Doctor Who. That horse toothed clingy over possessive wonder chav who won't go away Rose.

Ooh, you're good you are. Hang about.

I suppose I should've known better than to expect this to not turn into an RTD is teh blame for everything thread.

The mindset of people who hate him to such an extent that he's responsible for every bad thing that happens (even when proven he wasn't involved) yet somehow every good thing that happens is in spite of him is just bullshit of the highest order.

People who've been on this forum a while know damn well I'm no great fan of RTD but Christ you can't claim every little thing he ever did was wrong? It's pathetic and frankly I've had it with this crap. Is it too much to ask to have an actual discussion without Bones and The (and now someone new, wow Billie was horse faced, bet you on the other hand are a svelte super model of a man/woman) chiming in talking about RTD with so much hate you'd imagine they were Khan and Russell abandoned them on Ceti Alpha V and never bothered to check on their progress...

I'd say people were acting like children but frankly I know kids with better manners.

I'll thank you to leave my name (...or, pretend name) out of your tarring everyone with the same brush. I've not said anything here that isn't completely reasonable, and made an effort to expand on my views on the topic at hand, hardly mentioning RTD.

Again, sorry for offending you Starkers.

No, don't give into him. This is what he wants