I prefer later. Faith is not a gresat way to evaluate and assess reality.
Why would God send someone to hell over suicide?
- Thread starter Jayson
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A
Amaris
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I only use Reality Cash. I don't trust checks.
Sometimes I'll use a Reality American Express, because "It's everywhere you think you are".
J.
Jefferson was definitely not a Christian, but I think when it comes to Madison it's certainly a lot murkier. Certainly there are letters in which he denounces those with strong religious convictions, and others where he praises them and their ideals.
A
Amaris
Guest
We have to keep in mind that as much as we look up to these figures as the Founding Fathers of our nation, I'm sure there was more than a little politicking going on even then. Now, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine made their views quite clear, but Ben Franklin was known to hop around on either side.
J.
Absolutely, which is why I think it is unfair to these individuals to say with these kind of things with certainty when there is reasonable debate about them.
A
Amaris
Guest
I have no problems with the personal faith of the Founding Fathers. The more diverse, in my opinion, the better. I just want to clearly state that this nation isn't based solely upon Christian values, that it's got a dash of everything mixed in, whether it be secular humanism, principled faith, or whatever the case may be, and in there lies it's strength. It may not seem like it sometimes, but I have great respect for our Founding Fathers, the Constitution and the sacrifices made in the name of life, liberty and pursuing happiness.
J.
Why would it be "unfair" to suggest that they might have been something other than Christian, as if that is a negative allegation?
TLS was the one who was trying to suggest that the US was founded as a Christian nation in spite of laws and documentation to the contrary, which is why the discussion of the Founder's beliefs came up. So take it up with him if you're opposed to making comments with such certainty.
Here is the 'party line' on the topic of suicide, straight out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Suicide
2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.
So bottom line - it's a mortal sin (in fact, it is part of the Church's 'seamless garment of life' doctrine which forbids not only homicide and suicide, but also euthanasia, capital punishment, abortion, and the like) but can be mitigated by 'grave psychological disturbances, anguish, grave fear of hardship, suffering or torture', etc.
Hope that helps.
Well that certainly rules him out as a conservative, doesn't it? At best (from a Christian viewpoint), Madison was a moderate who respected (perhaps even admired in some situations) religious conviction but was steadfast in his opinion that religion and government should not mix.
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